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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:58 am 
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Hmmm... someone from Yashraj in here :) Dont worry !
Yashraj DVDs are meant to be copied and copied they will be !
No mercy for them !
As for they being gold media... how abt the observations made my Arsh that
" a brand new film KMG.. released on a shit dvd media,.. of cos having a PAL to NTSC conversion !..." (or someone claiming here to be better than the experts .. Michael Hafner for e.g. ) :D

Dragun a new signature for you :D

A DVD should look like a DVD. Anything less is CLIP(PER)able




Edited By sknath on 1064631716


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:18 am 
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Clipper wrote:
The disadvantage is that the horizontal resolution is essentially cut in half, and the video is often filtered to avoid flicker (interfield twitter) and other artifacts.

It may help to understand the difference by considering how the source images are captured. A film camera captures full frames in intervals that are 1/24th of a second long, whereas a video camera alternately scans fields of odd and even lines in 1/60th of a second intervals, resulting in interlaced frames that are 1/30th of a second long. (Unlike projected film, where the entire frame is shown in an instant, many progressive-scan displays trace a series of lines from top to bottom, but the end result is about the same.)

DVD is specifically designed to be displayed on interlaced-scan displays, which represent 99.9 percent of the more than one billion TVs worldwide. However, most DVD content comes from film, which is inherently progressive. To make film content work in interlaced form, the video from each film frame is split into two video fields —240 lines in one field, and 240 lines in the other— and encoded as separate fields in the MPEG-2 stream. A complication is that film runs at 24 frames per second, whereas TV runs at 30 frames (60 fields) per second for NTSC, or 25 frames (50 fields) per second for PAL and SECAM. For PAL/SECAM display, the simple solution is to show the film frames at 25 per second, which is a 4 percent speed increase, and to speed up the audio to match. For NTSC display, the solution is to spread 24 frames across 60 fields by alternating the display of the first film frame for 2 video fields and the next film frame for 3 video fields. This is called 2-3 pulldown. The sequence works as shown below, where A through D represent film frames; A1, A2, B1, and so on represent the separation of each film frame into two video fields; and 1 through 5 represent the final video frames."

Clipper that went over my head... as far as my knowledge goes, I have not seen anywhere (esp the MPEG-2 standards, yeah being part of my research work), that DVDs are meant to be displayed on "interlaced displays".
You have made an understatement that "filtering" is done to reduce the "twitter" . Infact that is what is done in the "Auto-select / Force-Bob method" of PowerDVD and you can see the effect. Believe me De-interlacing is an anathema for image processing engineers and what is done today, is not an optimal solution. However that should be used for material that have been previously recorded in a video mode (e.g. TV shows, concerts etc. ) and not films !
I have posted some links from the Charlie Chaplin DVD's ( yeah ur Fav hollywood companies), which reveal blurring effects due to conversion from a PAL master to NTSC.
What Rana's and Dragun's point is that if a film is telecined in PAL then it should be encoded in PAL (as you have pointed out). However that is not the case.
I think you may have been short-handed by DEI... else I am surprised how can u ignore from your posting abt a dvd like
Kaho Na Pyar Hai...(another Rakesh Roshan Film and I love that transfer.. absolutely flawless.. comparable to any Hollywood dvd !)
When I can get such stuff, why should I settle for anything less ? Unfortunately it is ppl who have the "indian-dvds-what-else-can-you-expect" attitude, is the reason for such a state we have now.
Ppl want dvds, no matter what the situation is, and as a result quality suffers !
DEI/BEI was/is the only company that actually focusses on quality. I hope AYNGARAN can be another such company. YashRaj..no way... they also believe in the cost-cutting-attitude that has plauged all non DEI-dvds (DEI also cuts-cost... If you notice, no motre inlay cards :( ).. whish is whY I openly advocate pirating all Non-DEI / BEI dvds... or even copying them. I dont think its worth copying a DVD that is priced at 7 or 8 bucks anyways !..


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 8:18 am 
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sknath wrote:
Hmmm... someone from Yashraj in here :) Dont worry !
Yashraj DVDs are meant to be copied and copied they will be !
No mercy for them !
As for they being gold media... how abt the observations made my Arsh that
" a brand new film KMG.. released on a shit dvd media,.. of cos having a PAL to NTSC conversion !..." (or someone claiming here to be better than the experts .. Michael Hafner for e.g. ) :D

What are these companies doing making PAL transfers anyways? There is no PAL DVD of these films, so it should all be film to NTSC. Perhaps Prasad is making PAL 4:3 letterbox transfers for Indian VCD or something and making them pseudo-anamorphic for DVDs for the West?

Quote:
Dragun a new signature for you :D

A DVD should look like a DVD. Anything less is CLIP(PER)able


Clipping is another problem with many Indian DVDs :)

Quote:
DEI/BEI was/is the only company that actually focusses on quality. I hope AYNGARAN can be another such company. YashRaj..no way... they also believe in the cost-cutting-attitude that has plauged all non DEI-dvds (DEI also cuts-cost... If you notice, no motre inlay cards :( )


Ayngaran DVDs are quite watchable, at least on interlaced displays. They are what we term "pseudo progressive" and have better sharpness and color than Eros DVDs. If they would switch to 24p encoding and fixed a few other minor problems, they would be even better. Same with EVP's newer DVDs (according to screenshots, as I haven't seen the discs) except they release one or two, then go into hibernation.

Inlay cards, do we really need them? Most of the time it is just chapter listings. Occasionally a DVD like KNPH will include a nice booklet. If a company has to cut costs, I would prefer omitting the inlay to using shoddy transfers. Even American companies have started to decrease the use of inlay cards. MGM's cheaper titles do not include them.




Edited By DragunR2 on 1064650939


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 9:25 am 
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Well so also with Universal ("For Love or Money" for e.g.)

Dragun... pseudo progressive is good for you, provided you have a high end dvd player that can get rid of the garbage repeated frame to give you a proper display. Unfortunately, software and general hardware DVD players dont have that facility !
I really wonder, why cant Indian dvds be made akin to ASOKA.. it was transferred in PAL and encoded in PAL ( the Metrodome version of cos !)... Flawless transfer ! Thats how a PAL encoded dvd should look like ...


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:55 pm 
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Quote:
Clipper that went over my head

i know sk that would explain why your post is interlaced with paranoia and gets progressively more as you continue :p check this site " DVD Demystified" that will help

Quote:
Hmmm... someone from Yashraj in here Dont worry !

hardly i am just a lowly peon trying to grasp the indian culture and thought that by watching the movies it might clear some of the misconceptions i have was over joyed when i found this site through googles but little do i know that the people here are so bitchy and self righteous so much so that promoting piracy is like a walk in the park

Quote:
(or someone claiming here to be better than the experts .. Michael Hafner for e.g. )

dont rightly recall where and when i have posted something conflicting to your resident expert perhaps you can be kind enough to point it to me and allow me to correct such sacrilege

Quote:
Yashraj DVDs are meant to be copied and copied they will be !


if you must then do so i could care less i only point out the fact that their dvd is not as bad as you people make it out to be and that they have no disc rot problems as yet



Quote:
Dragun a new signature for you

A DVD should look like a DVD. Anything less is CLIP(PER)able

now i am truly hurt you could have suggested that signature for me :p
LASTLY FOR ALL OF YOU WHO WANTS TO JUMP ON SK BAND WAGON AND FEEL THE NEED TO DEFEND HIM LET ME MAKE THIS PERFECTLY CLEAR I HOLD NO GRUDGES AGAINST ANYONE HERE AND WE CAN CAN ARGUE THIS POINT TILL THE COWS COME HOME AND NOTHING WILL CHANGE


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:59 pm 
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Seriously, Clipper yaar, watch the new Casablanca DVD then watch YRF's Devdas (Dilip Kumar). You'll see the difference, even though Casablanca is a few years older than Devdas. Or even watch Bridge on the River Kwai and Tere Naam. If a late 1950s movie looks better than a 2003 movie, something is wrong! :keh:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 7:03 pm 
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[quote="Clipper"][/quote]
Dude :)
I dont need to check that site.. That site and info is for ppl who are novices in this field. If you missed out my post, check it up again.. I stated thats part of my research work !
aka.. I am directly involved in this field. So I know what I am talking abt. We freaked out with the thought of working with interlaced sequences, that we shot progressive sequences afresh for my experiments !...
As for the "resident expert", check out the Koi Mil Gaya thread... You will get an idea abt the disc quality of YRF ( courtesy Arsh) and abt the video quality (courtesy Michael Hafner)

No one is disputing that Yashraj gives out good films... its just that they dont repliacte them as DVDs... I can say, at best they dish out good "VHS" prints on DVDs... Thats what all non-DEI companies (EROS, VS, WEG, YRF, SPARK, can afford to do !)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 7:05 pm 
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DragunR2 wrote:
Seriously, Clipper yaar, watch the new Casablanca DVD then watch YRF's Devdas (Dilip Kumar). You'll see the difference, even though Casablanca is a few years older than Devdas. Or even watch Bridge on the River Kwai and Tere Naam. If a late 1950s movie looks better than a 2003 movie, something is wrong! :keh:

Shame on you dragun... after all
Tere Naam is an Indian movie...
"..you ----- (should not) expect too much from indian dvd authors.." :D and be satisfied that you get a disc that works after a few plays ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:18 pm 
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Dragun R i watched the old devdas from yashraj and did a comparison to casablanca and your point is very clear and i agreed with you yet you still dont understand that indian dvd makers are limited and i guess its cause of technology equipment and money and the ready acceptance of these so called shit dvd by the public you know i am non indian but it seems i am the only one here that displays any tolerrance and sympathy to these dvd makers you people may well have some patients and hope that one day bollywood would be more aligned with hollywood in its products.
for sknath,
Quote:
That site and info is for ppl who are novices in this field


duh?

Quote:
So I know what I am talking abt

dont flatter yourself guess again :D
Quote:
As for the "resident expert", check out the Koi Mil Gaya thread... You will get an idea abt the disc quality of YRF ( courtesy Arsh) and abt the video quality (courtesy Michael Hafner)

and? :D how? :D


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:26 pm 
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Clipper, man!! besides issue that u are ? YRF guy, and Nath or Dragun is BEI, YRF dvds, especially, their OLD CLASSICS/$20 each are/were practically SHIT transfers, I sigh, and feel like crying viewing, KABHI KABHI, DAAG, SILSILA, MADHUMATI, NAYA DAUR., RTGM.and list goes on and on..

I am not BIASED, and wants to stay fair!! SELF DESTRUCTIVE DVD DISCS are UNACCEPTABLE, whether from VS/SPARK or BEI or YRF,

YRF only consolation, for people to pay HIGH PRICE for their LESS THAN ORDINARY transfers was GOOD MEDIA, that will, last! and If that does not happen..mean it does not LAST, then it is DOOMED situation..I dont JUSTIFY my $20 bucks for this kinda work..

If it would be $2-$5 , Just for CONTENT/MOVIE sake, as most YRF stuff is based upon, I am willing to take a risk, watch movie..thats it..

MYKSH/MDK were even WORSE than KMG, Saathiya..and I am very OBJECTIVE here!

I never meant to UNDERMINE ur credibility but TRUTH is TRUTH..

I'll rate KMG..over all 5- 6/10 as DVD, and if MEDIA FAILS, 2/10.. :baaa: :ffs: :bangbang:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:58 pm 
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for crying out aloud and for the last time I AM NOT YRF MAN for that matter i am nobodys man atleast not yet if somebody wants to pay me to be their mouth piece thats an other story but i am one confused person right now seems like every dvd maker is getting their ass kicked here and thats what i do not understand is there any company here that can please you sad bunch of people :bash:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:49 pm 
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Clipper wrote:
Dragun R i watched the old devdas from yashraj and did a comparison to casablanca and your point is very clear and i agreed with you yet you still dont understand that indian dvd makers are limited and i guess its cause of technology equipment and money and the ready acceptance of these so called shit dvd by the public

You make it seem as if despite YRF's and Eros' best efforts, the DVDs are slighty subpar. This is not the case.

When these companies use VHS/VCD masters (and sometimes VHS tapes themselves) that are probably several years old, these companies are obviously not even trying to get their transfers to DVD standard.

Quote:
you know i am non indian but it seems i am the only one here that displays any tolerrance and sympathy to these dvd makers you people may well have some patients and hope that one day bollywood would be more aligned with hollywood in its products.


It doesn't matter that you are not Indian. It isn't relevant to this discussion. Why should we have sympathy for these companies that cheap out at one or more stages at the game? I am including BEI in this for using cheap media. YRF uses gold media, but puts no effort into the vast majority of their discs. Same with Eros. Video Sound and SKY create bad transfers and use cheap media. BEI usually puts a lot of effort into their transfers, but many of their discs are on cheap media.

Why should we have patience with them? Hollywood DVDs at the beginning were better than the Indian DVDs released today. The same technology is available to Hollywood and Indian companies. Slapping a Movie Mahal segment and a fancy cover on a shit DVD does not make it a "collector's edition." :bangbang:




Edited By DragunR2 on 1064865051


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:21 pm 
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Quote:
It doesn't matter that you are not Indian. It isn't relevant to this discussion


granted, but my referrence was being non indian and i can exhibit some sort of restraint and understanding it would seem to me that the people who are actuaully indian will be a little more supportive.

Quote:
Hollywood DVDs at the beginning were better than the Indian DVDs released today


your inferrence that all hollywood dvds are better is a myth cause you are probably only expose to name brand companies trust me there are alot of hollywood dvd authors out there who or on par or worst than indian dvd makers and do employ the same unscrupolous methods as their indian counterparts you should see the scramble to get their hands on those prints that are in public domains with expired copyrights and would be even more amazed at the techniques used to unleash them on the unsuspecting public fortunately hollywood have big players with limitless coiffers and a slew of consumers with sophisticated taste who probably will not stand for shit dvds from these name brand companies the same cannot be said for the indian dvd makers and their consumers incidentally i saw the poll on the main page regarding quality and as far as i can tell you people that do possess that sophistication are in the minority until the majority of viewers of indian dvds acquire this taste you will not see an improvement


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:50 pm 
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Clipper wrote:
your inferrence that all hollywood dvds are better is a myth cause you are probably only expose to name brand companies trust me there are alot of hollywood dvd authors out there who or on par or worst than indian dvd makers and do employ the same unscrupolous methods as their indian counterparts you should see the scramble to get their hands on those prints that are in public domains with expired copyrights and would be even more amazed at the techniques used to unleash them on the unsuspecting public fortunately hollywood have big players with limitless coiffers and a slew of consumers with sophisticated taste who probably will not stand for shit dvds from these name brand companies the same cannot be said for the indian dvd makers and their consumers incidentally i saw the poll on the main page regarding quality and as far as i can tell you people that do possess that sophistication are in the minority until the majority of viewers of indian dvds acquire this taste you will not see an improvement

I am well aware of the companies like Madacy and Platinum that do PD work. However, Yash Raj and Eros are two of the biggest names in Hindi cinema. For years they have distributed films (Yash Raj also produces), so they are not small time operations. If DEI can make an effort, there is no reason for the companies who have existed for a few decades not to. Studios from big DVD companies should not look like PD stuff when they have access to the a print. DEI is a third party, but their DVDs, except for a few, are from 35mm. Even the Yash Chopra and BR Chopra films from YRF are from years-old video sources.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2003 4:48 am 
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we should have a zulm fund lol..where ppl donate money..and then we can buy the rights for sholay..and get it done on gold media with extras and a pristine transfer in california..how bout that :bangbang:


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