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sknath
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:31 pm 
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mhafner wrote:
sknath wrote:
MalFUnXiON wrote:
Not denying the progressive importance, DVD's MUST be film-based as you state, so I'm in complete agreement.

What I'm asking is, is a non-anamorphic but progressive "DVD" acceptable for a new WS film?
Not to imply that we should have one or the other, imo both are musts for quality DVD's.

Nope it is not !... Infact (assuming the dvd is progressive) then this dvd would be considered a shit dvd... as the norm these days is to present the movie in its OAR..(or at least widescreen enhanced)... Thats why I said... You can dissect the dvd in any way you want to.. once the TELE-CINE process has been done correctly !...

Lack of 16:9 enhancement does not imply lack of OAR or
sharpness. You can not have the additional vertical
resolution of 16:9 enhancement with a letterbox transfer,
but if everything else is top notch it will look very good
nonetheless. There is letterbox material on the Gladiator
DVD supplements that is sharper than most enhanced DVDs.
Horizontal sharpness is not affected by letterboxing and
vertical sharpness is compromised all the time since all
DVDs are vertically filtered to reduce line twitter on
interlaced displays, whether they are letterboxed or 16:9
enhanced (the new Video Essentials is supposedly the first
real progressive DVD with no vertical filtering).

Well I had some other dvds in mind.
e.g. the old Paramount DVD releases...
Hunt for Red October,
Patriot Games etc.

Even MI - Part 1 is non-anamorphic. I would be interested in knowing how these dvds compare with their non-anamorphic cousins !

Hafner, anamorphic enhancement is not what I am talking abt.. ( Enhancement is ruled out unless the print is absolutely useless). But as you are aware, with Indian films you need to have some form of enhancement, but unf DEI is the only company that does that and we end up getting pictures that are wierd looking (excessive color saturation)

Mfunx, as Hafnre has mentioned, you can do some filtering to remove the "line twitter", but that should not be the case unless it is absolutely a must. I defintaley dont want a NTSC dvd, converted from a PAL tele-cined DVD !... Let me watch a PAL dvd as it is (e.g the Asoka PAL dvd.. )

Zooming is a problem, as present day DVD technology uses the DCT (discrete cosine transform) to transform the signals and subsequently encode them. This gives rise to blocking artifacts, which are evidednt when you zoom the picture. You can get a glimpse of this by zooming a JPEG encoded picture and you will know what I am talking abt.
On the other hand, MPEG 4 (today's technology) uses the DWT ( discrete wavelet transform), and even if you zoom the picture, the picture wont have those blocking artifacts. Of cos, it is more complicated and computationally intesive, and mired in PATENTS..so dont expect to see them soon !



Edited By sknath on 1063730103
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rana
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:25 pm 
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Posts: 6147
MalFUnXiON wrote:
Just as a general question, is there a percentage for how much quality is reduced when you zoom in on a non-anamorphic letterbox picture on a WS TV?

It all depends on the video processor. Processed video means a new picture created from given information. Processed video may be better looking than original, but won't be original picture.

Normally, there is a degradation in picture quality with each sequence of video processing.

Letterboxed 16:9 pic zoomed on widescreen TV to fill the 16:9 screen means an extra step in video processing to create 480 lines of image from the 360 lines info. Similarly, an anamorphic 16:9 image displayed on 4:3 TV means an extra step of video processing from 480 lines of info to get 360 lines of image.

Rana
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rana
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:29 pm 
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arsh wrote:
[Anamorphic enhancement improves the pic by 33% but only if the master had that much extra res to begin with. It's easy to set anamorphic flags (480 lines) on a DVD even if the master was only letterboxed (360 lines). Assuming, a DVD is true anamorphic and not a cheater anamorphic, the improvement is 33%]

and that improvement could only be seen on WIDESCREEN displays..that Most of the hindi dvd viewers, dont have..

Most viewers have STD AR, less than or equal 27 inch, tube TV, that are onnly SDTVs, with no component, 480p connections, audio out from tv speakers or any other pseudo source, boom box with multi speakers..

STD DVD players, even not PROG SCAN ones..

So, for them..

1. Content..YRF films..supposedly,
2. 1.85 cropped letter box image.
3. 2 channel stereo or pseudo 5.1 for extra BOOM.
4. SVCD copied from ORIG DVD of any kind.(media does not matter)
5..good looking package.
6. extra good bonus material.
Should do, most of the time..

If few still insist for using DVDS instead of SVCD/VCD etc..then durable media comes in the picture..Af skipability, no advertisement like t series..but mostly T series kinda dvds for $2.99 should do, like KAANTE..

Prog or not, does not matter..

But for this kinda product my price will be $4.99 or less..

Now for the REST of PICKY VIEWERS Who know/ can tell/ and have proper equipment, or watch on their PCs, it is a different story.. :baaa:

So, for them..

1. Content..YRF films..supposedly,
2. 1.85 cropped letter box image.
3. 2 channel stereo or pseudo 5.1 for extra BOOM.
4. SVCD copied from ORIG DVD of any kind.(media does not matter)
5..good looking package.
6. extra good bonus material.
Should do, most of the time..

VHS can meet this criteria.
$2.50 Cdn VHS copy will meet this criteria.

Rana
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rana
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:09 pm 
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Posts: 6147
An Absolute no no is 'Film to PAL to NTSC' or Film to NTSC to PAL.

If they must cine-tel Film to PAL only to save money, they should make a PAL DVD only.
If they want to make money from NTSC market, they must use Film to NTSC cine-tel for a NTSC DVD. Film to NTSC cine-tel DVD may come out Progressive by default and in the worst case a pseudo-progressive. Pseudo-prog is still better than field averaged, that it will be if PAL to NTSC converted.

Rana
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Zoran009
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:19 pm 
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I dont think, we will see DIRECT NTC TELECINE any more!!

ECONOMICS of LULLA etc..

BTW!! Did u include PROGRESS of YRF to crappy media..every one who bought KMG, watch it as much as u can, as it wont last longer!!
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MalFUnXiON
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:51 am 
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Location: NYC, USA
arsh wrote:
I dont think, we will see DIRECT NTC TELECINE any more!!

ECONOMICS of LULLA etc..

BTW!! Did u include PROGRESS of YRF to crappy media..every one who bought KMG, watch it as much as u can, as it wont last longer!!

So now for >$20 we get crappy media, still crappy quality, and that stupid logo on the bottom??? WTF is wrong with the DVD makers, even Lulla is better than this.
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sknath
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:05 am 
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Posts: 2853
Location: Canada
MalFUnXiON wrote:
arsh wrote:
I dont think, we will see DIRECT NTC TELECINE any more!!

ECONOMICS of LULLA etc..

BTW!! Did u include PROGRESS of YRF to crappy media..every one who bought KMG, watch it as much as u can, as it wont last longer!!

So now for >$20 we get crappy media, still crappy quality, and that stupid logo on the bottom??? WTF is wrong with the DVD makers, even Lulla is better than this.

MalF have no fear... the "good" folks in Pak. are helping you solve that problem by giving u near "perfect" replica's of these shit dvds...so grab a copy and hope it lasts for sometime..afterall for abt 5$ I dont think you can go wrong :) :tounge:
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rana
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:35 pm 
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arsh wrote:
I dont think, we will see DIRECT NTSC TELECINE any more!!

ECONOMICS of LULLA etc..

But, EROS still often comes up with direct film to NTSC cine-tel of new movies.
Problem is with DVD authoring from VHS days masters, most of which are PAL to NTSC converted video copies. Even during VHS days, initially cinetel for North America used to be film to NTSC in the beginning. Later they discovered cost saving tricks of PAL to NTSC conversions and copying and further copying and further further copying. Who cares About quality or whether PAL to NTSC or NTSC to PAL conversion. Even most of zulmis don't.

Rana



Edited By rana on 1063892197
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mhafner
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 8:18 am 
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Posts: 1086
rana wrote:
An Absolute no no is 'Film to PAL to NTSC' or Film to NTSC to PAL.

If they must cine-tel Film to PAL only to save money, they should make a PAL DVD only.
If they want to make money from NTSC market, they must use Film to NTSC cine-tel for a NTSC DVD. Film to NTSC cine-tel DVD may come out Progressive by default and in the worst case a pseudo-progressive. Pseudo-prog is still better than field averaged, that it will be if PAL to NTSC converted.

Rana

Film to PAL to NTSC can look as good as film to NTSC
IF IT's DONE RIGHT! But these Indian companies never do
it right. They first make a jumpy PAL transfer with extra
fields and then they field average this to NTSC. The result
is jumpy and smeared NTSC, the worst from both worlds.
If one does a PAL transfer with 4% speed up and then
reformat to NTSC with correct pulldown it will have correct
motion with a progressive player and all is fine if the
resampling is of good quality. A friend of mine did a DVD
this way and it looks good (Jack the Ripper with Klaus
Kinski).
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rana
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2003 4:12 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2001 7:27 pm
Posts: 6147
mhafner wrote:
rana wrote:
An Absolute no no is 'Film to PAL to NTSC' or Film to NTSC to PAL.

If they must cine-tel Film to PAL only to save money, they should make a PAL DVD only.
If they want to make money from NTSC market, they must use Film to NTSC cine-tel for a NTSC DVD. Film to NTSC cine-tel DVD may come out Progressive by default and in the worst case a pseudo-progressive. Pseudo-prog is still better than field averaged, that it will be if PAL to NTSC converted.

Rana

Film to PAL to NTSC can look as good as film to NTSC
IF IT's DONE RIGHT! But these Indian companies never do
it right. They first make a jumpy PAL transfer with extra
fields and then they field average this to NTSC. The result
is jumpy and smeared NTSC, the worst from both worlds.
If one does a PAL transfer with 4% speed up and then
reformat to NTSC with correct pulldown it will have correct
motion with a progressive player and all is fine if the
resampling is of good quality. A friend of mine did a DVD
this way and it looks good (Jack the Ripper with Klaus
Kinski).

You are absolutely right Michael.
Some of EVP Hindi interlaced DVDs are PAL to NTSC converted without mixing up the frames. This is indicated when you see every 6th step a repeated step instead of every 5th for a Film to NTSC telecine.

Other EVP Hindi DVDs as well as other brand DVDs, that are progressive, may have been direct Film to NTSC or Film to PAL to NTSC as per your sequence. If done right, result can be as good as direct film to NTSC. But, it needs competence.

Rana
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