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Babelover
PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 2:01 am 
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DVD is the best format out there for movies, at the moment it seems unbeatable.
People have bought more films in dvd format as part of their collection than they ever did in vhs format. This is a huge investment in our favourite movies.
What happens when a new breathtaking format for movies arises?
Do we buy our collection all over again for the sake of the new format?
Analogue was the initial format for sound and picture, but now its the digital era. Have we met the limits of perfection or can there be something out there that will wipe out the digital age, just like digital is wiping analogue out.
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sknath
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 2:31 am 
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I think the next generation of DVDs would be still called DVD's, but the whole concept of DVDs will change. For starters, you will have the so called Hi - Def DVD's... which are still low-def when compared with the ultimate mutha of a format out there... the IMAX film format (3000 x 4000).. IMO, thats the goal to be reached... In addition you have MPEG 4 and MPEG 7 coming up. Ppl may put more features on DVDs...

Suppose you have a movie in which D'Niro is present... and the user would like to know more info abt D'Niro.. Then the user can easily go and select D'niro and get more info abt him and his films etc.. Thats called video data profiling... content based delivery.. whatever you may call it. You can see it will be a much advanced version of the CNN_ Headline news format that you see on ur TV sets today.

However the biggest feature that may be present in a DVD would be the so called QoS framework. We see that with digital data transmission but it can effectively be incorporated into a stand alone DVd. This is provided adequate features have been developed for copyright protection ( so all you pirates out there... dont bother hacking the Nex-Gen DVDs.. it would be next to impossible )... The dvd may have video stored at a frame size of 3000 x 4000, but I may wish to see only a small % of the sequence... Consequently I may wish to pay for only a frame size of 1024 x 768 ( a present day Hi-Def TV)... If I wish to get more resolution.... more money to decrypt the data .. etc etc..
One final feature... DVDs can be programmed , so as to access the internet, while playing a movie.. to get even more content on delivery ( aka more money !)... So I would say this is the future .... (and if you include the work I am doing.. it may even incorporate 3-dimensional video data ! )
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DragunR2
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 4:56 am 
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As the Hi-def disc format is coming closer and closer to fruition, surely competing companies are developing various copy protection schemes. Do you foresee a situation where some of the first discs use one method of copy protection, but later they switch to another, possibly causing compatibility problems with TVs or players? Even right now, some people with projectors say they have trouble watching Macrovision encoded DVDs.
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sknath
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:31 am 
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Dragun I am not sure abt "viewing" compatibility, but what I meant was the concept of DVD hacking... Lil wonder some ppl will be out of business if that happens eventually. Digital cryptography is the next hot thing.. after DVD and entertainment based content delivery.

As for compatibility issues, I can give you an analogy... baseline JPEG encoders use the DCT format for transform. However the JPEG 2K format will make the present (state of the art) JEG format redundant. Hence display devices will be designed to view J2K encoded images. However they will still have backward compatibility for viewing previously encoded JPEG images. I have still not made any investment into a digital camera or DVD camcorder... for the simple reason that the compression technology is gonna be obselete in a few years time.

Likewise present DAY dvds can possibly be played on next generation DVD players, ... However unless the film is absolutely a classic I dont intend of switching to the Hi-Def format..... (those films will be on a case by case basis... say for example a film like T-2 or Star Wars.. Part 1 or 2 ...)

Have you ever watched an IMAX film on DVD.. Present day DVD technologies do not do justice to that format.. However the day is not far when very efficient coding technologies will be developed which would enable IMAX to completely encode theirs "FILM" in their original dimensions.
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DragunR2
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 5:43 pm 
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Will HD-DVD be 1080i or 1080p?



Edited By DragunR2 on 1044553487
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captainamerica
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:56 pm 
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Quote:
( so all you pirates out there... dont bother hacking the Nex-Gen DVDs.. it would be next to impossible ).


I wouldn't put my money on that as yet. There are very resourceful people licking their chops right now in anticipation, basically there is a cure for all ills and a breach for every security lock. Just have to wait and see :D
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sknath
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:03 pm 
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I think most prolly.. 1080i.. Believe me the day when 1080p is achieved we will get a mind blowing experience on our TV sets.. (not with desi films of cos. )

1080p would involve encoding 24 full frames instead of the present 48 half frames. That would dramatically increase resolution proportional to the original image source. ! (Think what this means with SW- Ep 2) :oh:
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rana
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:14 pm 
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DragunR2 wrote:
Will HD-DVD be 1080i or 1080p?

Does it make a difference if DVD is storing a properly transferred 24 fps film?? If we have an expensive display capable of handling 1080p, 1080i can easily be converted to 1080p just like our present day 480i to 480p.

Most likely, 1080i will be the standard in the near future. One main reason is not too many displays are capable of 1080p. To be compatible with cheaper and more common 1080i displays, 1080i is being used. Actually, 1080p x 24 frames makes more sense than 1080i x 60 fields (half frame) per sec. Properly done 1080i x 60 for film based material, actually is 1080i x 48 with flags set to repeat additional fields.

Rana
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DragunR2
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 7:45 pm 
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captainamerica wrote:
Quote:
( so all you pirates out there... dont bother hacking the Nex-Gen DVDs.. it would be next to impossible ).


I wouldn't put my money on that as yet. There are very resourceful people licking their chops right now in anticipation, basically there is a cure for all ills and a breach for every security lock. Just have to wait and see :D

Wasn't it some teenager who cracked CSS?
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sknath
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 8:01 pm 
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DragunR2 wrote:
captainamerica wrote:
Quote:
( so all you pirates out there... dont bother hacking the Nex-Gen DVDs.. it would be next to impossible ).


I wouldn't put my money on that as yet. There are very resourceful people licking their chops right now in anticipation, basically there is a cure for all ills and a breach for every security lock. Just have to wait and see :D

Wasn't it some teenager who cracked CSS?

CSS is a primitive technology... very simple mathematical models were use for designing that ( i think it was 48 bit string)... The nex-gen DVD encryption would involve 128 Bit or more encryption... If not impossible, i would say they are extremely tuff to hack. Also there is something called Digital watermarking... every image frame can be encoded so as to include an invisible watermark.. Concurrently ur software or hardware players can be designed so as to recognize this watermark.. else the dvd wont play.

The present day RCE (region coded enhancement.. Urban Legend, Urban legend Final cut for example..) is a pre-cursor to what may happen eventually !

Its like you will enjoy for what you pay for.. nothing more and nothing less. All folks with region free dvd players... may have some "itchy-feeling" and i forsee that very soon :D
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Babelover
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:16 pm 
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They told us unhackable audio cd's are just round the corner. I think companies catch on now if they spend huge amounts of money making the product unhackable, in the end some nerd always finds a way around it.
Also consider this, when dvd came out new, some maufacturers had problems fitting the whole film on 1 side of the disc, did that mean better quality? if so why not increase capacity of dvd's?
All in all its better to watch movies off a disc, no wear an tear to the pic quality, but what about the wear and tear to the actual disc, scratches, smudges etc.
As for my main point, the new format will still work by the digital principles with an improved pic quality, but can anything make digital in its purest form absolete?
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captainamerica
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:37 pm 
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Quote:
but can anything make digital in its purest form absolete
Your original question. Very interesting, but are we even technically advance to even imagine what a different medium will be? Very interest indeed.
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sknath
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 9:46 pm 
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Babelover wrote:
They told us unhackable audio cd's are just round the corner. I think companies catch on now if they spend huge amounts of money making the product unhackable, in the end some nerd always finds a way around it.
Also consider this, when dvd came out new, some maufacturers had problems fitting the whole film on 1 side of the disc, did that mean better quality? if so why not increase capacity of dvd's?
All in all its better to watch movies off a disc, no wear an tear to the pic quality, but what about the wear and tear to the actual disc, scratches, smudges etc.
As for my main point, the new format will still work by the digital principles with an improved pic quality, but can anything make digital in its purest form absolete?

Pure is a very relative term... For the old timers.. a VHS tape is the best available source... for ppl like me... hi-def is useless.. I crave for IMAX format ... (Apollo 13 in its IMAX version )

As for unhackable CDs... again, if you read the info abt the the new copy protected CDs (e.g. the Céline Dion cd), its more to do with some silly .ifo files which are there in the CD... it is supposed to be present at the outer rim of the cd and subsequently ppl used a pen to darken out that part and could easily hack the CD... Now consider the case... had the same .ifo file been somehow encoded into the audio stream (in this case a wave file) then hacking would not be so easy.. You would need to know the exact sequence and location of this ifo and its contents before you can devise schemes to hack it. This can be (theoretically) achieved if you embed the signal ( in this case the ausio stream) with some form of digital watermark.
The outer-rim protection is supposed to be the first form of protection... This may be easy to hack... as has been shown with DVds and Copy protected Cds.. But hacking a digitally watermarked data stream will take some really (and i mean) really ingenious guesswork.. as the mathematical models involved in generating them are random , rather than determistic in nature :)
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mhafner
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:49 pm 
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sknath wrote:
Babelover wrote:
For the old timers.. a VHS tape is the best available source... for ppl like me... hi-def is useless.. I crave for IMAX format ... (Apollo 13 in its IMAX version )
n determistic in nature :)

HD useless? Why? Imax is useless for home cinema since only
oil sheiks have 30m high screens. Your eye can not resolve IMAX
resolution on a 2-3m wide home cinema screen. And there are
no projectors anyway too. The whole technology is incredibly
heavy and not manageable outside an Imax cinema. Also
useless for 99% of all films.
The future in home cinema is 1080i and 1080p. More is not
needed for screen sizes that are realistic in home cinemas.
If you know how good 1080p looks you are very happy with it.
It's good enough, really.
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sknath
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:32 pm 
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Posts: 2853
Location: Canada
mhafner wrote:
sknath wrote:
Babelover wrote:
For the old timers.. a VHS tape is the best available source... for ppl like me... hi-def is useless.. I crave for IMAX format ... (Apollo 13 in its IMAX version )
n determistic in nature :)

HD useless? Why? Imax is useless for home cinema since only
oil sheiks have 30m high screens. Your eye can not resolve IMAX
resolution on a 2-3m wide home cinema screen. And there are
no projectors anyway too. The whole technology is incredibly
heavy and not manageable outside an Imax cinema. Also
useless for 99% of all films.
The future in home cinema is 1080i and 1080p. More is not
needed for screen sizes that are realistic in home cinemas.
If you know how good 1080p looks you are very happy with it.
It's good enough, really.

Hafner... I meant that I would be satisfied with an IMAX format for the video that would be (someday) encoded into a "DVD" ( the whole concept of dvd will change by then).. I did mention that.. and as you have rightly pointed out that, I may not be able to afford a DVd with such high resolution info.. Thus I would pay only for accessing only 1080x768 resolution info from the dvd. This is befeficial for the companies also and this something called Spatial scalability.. ! (which is a part of my ongoing research work). It reduces costs and also gives me a good deal on a hi-q (sufficient enuff) DVD
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