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rana
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2003 4:39 pm 
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mhafner wrote:
The masses outside of HD land (USA, Japan...) have to wait for HD-DVD till many titles become available to them (which can take anywhere from 1-5 years from now). Europe is in the stoneage concerning HD, EC or no EC, and no remedy in sight.

I think the reason is that at present North America is trying to catch up with Europe. In the present NTSC/ PAL system, most European DVDs are/ were far better than North America's.

For example, consider "Pretty Woman". European version is Anamorphic giving a res of 576 lines. American version is letterboxed 1.85:1 giving a picture contained in 360 lines of res.

Also, by default Film to PAL transfer is Progressive if 4% speed shifted (which is normally done), where as, you find improperly coded (interlaced) DVDs in NTSC. This was a problem in many DVDs in the past in the case of Hollywood DVDs and still is an epidemic, even now, for Indian DVDs.

Rana
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ganti
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2003 10:14 pm 
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Rana,
Quote:
Also, by default Film to PAL transfer is Progressive if 4% speed shifted (which is normally done), where as, you find improperly coded (interlaced) DVDs in NTSC. This was a problem in many DVDs in the past in the case of Hollywood DVDs and still is an epidemic, even now, for Indian DVDs.

Rana,
4% speed shifting makes Film to PAL progressive , which may not be big issue with image quality loss but 4% speed shifted Audio does not sound good (with out sync).



Edited By ganti on 1042668924
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rana
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2003 10:26 pm 
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ganti wrote:
Rana,
Quote:
Also, by default Film to PAL transfer is Progressive if 4% speed shifted (which is normally done), where as, you find improperly coded (interlaced) DVDs in NTSC. This was a problem in many DVDs in the past in the case of Hollywood DVDs and still is an epidemic, even now, for Indian DVDs.

Rana,
4% speed shifting makes Film to PAL progressive , which may not be big issue with image quality loss but 4% speed shifted Audio does not sound good (with out sync).

4% faster playback is pitch corrected. This problem with audio in the case of 4% speed up is often debated. But the experts have settled and are content with the view that it is not noticeable if audio is pitch corrected.

Actually, if you ever noticed, in general in Hollywood or in Bollywood, the audio material released is most of the times at different speed than the final theatrical film. Audio is often sped up or down to fit in the tape or LP (in the vinyl days) so that no blank portion is left.

Rana
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ganti
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 3:17 pm 
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Rana,
I don't have much experience with PAL DVDs. But as I understand from the AVS Forum Discussion, even though with high resolution, PAL DVDs are not necessary better than NTSC in the 60 Hz country like US.

Some of the notable highlights from the discussions.


Regarding edge enhancement, the great Bjoern Roy said a while ago that there was no correlation. And compression artifacts should even be more serious on PAL material at the same bit rate, because of the higher resolution.-- Grubert


Correctly, that they simply speed the film up to 25 fps. It's that simple. No 3:2 pulldown or such nonsense. You have a smoother image, but the sound is faster and that is a tradeoff that drives me insane if the actors are speaking my language.-- Matt_Stevens

So back to the original question, are PAL DVD's better
that NTSC DVD's? IMHO, only if you live in a country
with a 50 Hz power grid. Here in the USA, with it's 60 Hz
power grid, PAL flickers like crazy. If you European cats
could witness PAL playback in a 60 Hz country, you would
not be so enthusiastic about PAL. The added resolution
is totally compromised by the flicker.--- dr1394


I think ZULM is the right place for a good discussion on this topic as we have people from all parts of the world with predominant percentage of people from regions other than R1.



Edited By ganti on 1042730372
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rana
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 3:39 pm 
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ganti wrote:
Correctly, that they simply speed the film up to 25 fps. It's that simple. No 3:2 pulldown or such nonsense. You have a smoother image, but the sound is faster and that is a tradeoff that drives me insane if the actors are speaking my language.-- Matt_Stevens

So back to the original question, are PAL DVD's better
that NTSC DVD's?

There are tons of Indian NTSC DVDs that have been transferred from a PAL master which in itself, if made properly, was speed shifted. Examples:
EVP Kashmir Ki Kali, Pyar Hi Pyar, Ajnabee, Prem Kahani, Barsaat Ki Ek Raat.
Metrodome PAL ASOKA
First Look NTSC ASOKA which is a copy of PAL ASOKA and hence is also 4% faster.

Did any one notice the effect of 4% sped-up Audio??

PAL is often better not just because of higher resolution, but due to higher level of Consumer level of awareness. There are many Hollywood widescreen DVDs that were, and have stayed, letterboxed in North America, where as, they are Anamorphic in Europe. If they were not anamorphic initially, the producers were forced to redo those DVDs due to consumer hue and cry.

Rana



Edited By rana on 1042733141
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ganti
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 3:52 pm 
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Rana,
I only have one PAL DVD in my collection, Metrodome ASOKA. I have to check again to see any problem with AUDiO, which I think, I have not noticed nor observed in particular but I am pretty sure that I thought I did not felt comfortable watching the image. I was not aware of the reason at the time. Now I can say it is the flicker that strained my eyes.
Again I have no complaints as still ASHOKA PAL in my books, is one of the top 10 best looking INDIAN disks, period.



Edited By ganti on 1042732364
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rana
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 4:12 pm 
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I remember one instance where I thought the CD audio was too slow. It was one of Mitun's disco films (I think it was ILZAAM). I had heard those numbers on VHS only. The VHS must have been from 4% faster PAL tape. I had known of only that version of the audio and liked the pace. Later I got the CD and found the audio beat to be too slow. Never got to like the CD as I had gotten used to the version I heard first, which actually was 4% faster.

Rana



Edited By rana on 1042733620
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ganti
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 4:22 pm 
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Quote:
I remember one instance where I thought the CD audio was too slow. It was one of Mitun's disco films (I think it was ILZAAM). I had heard those numbers on VHS only. The VHS must have been from 4% faster PAL tape. I had known of only that version of the audio and liked the pace. Later I got the CD and found the audio beat to be too slow. Never got to like the CD as I had gotten used to the version I heard first, which actually was 4% faster


There you go Ranaji. That means we can only found out the problem with Audio if you have the same movie from different regions, side by side when compared.

I think we can use more insight in this from Arsh, Ali and others



Edited By ganti on 1042734228
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rana
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 4:53 pm 
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But, still, we will like the audio that we got accustomed to and not that which is the correct one. Moreover, not all PAL film material runs 4% faster. For example, PAL video maker may have added 1 field after every 24 fields to compensate for this or PAL video may have come from NTSC video etc.

Also, not all Audio CDs or cassetts are recorded at the film speed either. They often adjust the speed to suit their immediate goals.

Rana
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DragunR2
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 5:31 pm 
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rana wrote:
But, still, we will like the audio that we got accustomed to and not that which is the correct one. Moreover, not all PAL film material runs 4% faster. For example, PAL video maker may have added 1 field after every 24 fields to compensate for this or PAL video may have come from NTSC video etc.

Also, not all Audio CDs or cassetts are recorded at the film speed either. They often adjust the speed to suit their immediate goals.

Rana

But wouldn't adding an extra frame make the picture occasionally jerky? I've read that there is no satisfactory way to retain the 24fps speed of a film when transferring to PAL.
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rana
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 6:53 pm 
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DragunR2 wrote:
rana wrote:
But, still, we will like the audio that we got accustomed to and not that which is the correct one. Moreover, not all PAL film material runs 4% faster. For example, PAL video maker may have added 1 field after every 24 fields to compensate for this or PAL video may have come from NTSC video etc.

Also, not all Audio CDs or cassetts are recorded at the film speed either. They often adjust the speed to suit their immediate goals.

Rana

But wouldn't adding an extra frame make the picture occasionally jerky? I've read that there is no satisfactory way to retain the 24fps speed of a film when transferring to PAL.

That's right. For this reason, experts have settled for 4% faster speed for Film to PAL conversions. Some think otherwise and do add extra fields.

Rana
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ganti
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:23 pm 
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I am not willing to take a PAL HOLLYWOOD disk, if it is available in NTSC with the same specs as 4% speed shift does flicker the image when watched with 60HZ native resolution display.

I am willing to change my statement if proved otherwise.
But the story of Bollywood DVDs is different, if a direct PAL disk (Transferred from film with 4% speed shifted) available then we should not worry about finding a NTSC disk.



Edited By ganti on 1042752228
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rana
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 3:49 pm 
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ganti wrote:
I am not willing to take a PAL HOLLYWOOD disk, if it is available in NTSC with the same specs as 4% speed shift does flicker the image when watched with 60HZ native resolution display.

What is the reason for this flicker? Is it due to 60 Hz power supply and all the HT equipment or is it due to 60 Hz light bulbs interfering with 50 Hz picture or ---??

Rana



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technogeek
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:04 pm 
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Have you guys considered how much HDTVs would cost in India? The average HDTV(mixture of RP, FP, plasma etc) in USA is about 3000 dollars i.e about 1.5 lakh rupees. Add the cost of the set top box and the programming and I wonder how many people would be able to afford it?
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rana
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:12 pm 
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Any one who has a PC is already HDTV compatible. Lots of PCs are in India. Lots of extremely well to do people are in India. Actually, if we go back to India, we will come under the category of Poor.

HDTV doesn't or will not cost much more than what a standard TV cost was 2 yrs ago. Its just a matter of what is mass produced.

Rana
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