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Shahran Sunny Audit
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 2:48 pm 
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Alright I was having words with Ayngaran and they have began work on doing thier forthcoming DVD releases in progressive tranfers. However I need some clarification on this method of transfer.

Many movies are transfered from the original negative onto digibeta (e.g. Asohka DVD) then from that it is encoded and stored in the DVD format. Since the final DVD product will be NTSC would they transfer the film on digibeta in NTSC then store onto the DVD format in NTSC progressive mode?

I am a tad bit confused so some clarification would be of some help.

Please sugrrest any method that would help Ayngaran gain progressive tranfer on thier DVD's and please note that the intented system used will be NTSC. Post all your info on this forum.

Thanx I'll pass all our postings to the DVD team of Ayngaran.
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ali
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:06 pm 
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John McEnroe says "You Cannot Be Serious!" :bangbang:

Ali :baaa:
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Shahran Sunny Audit
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 3:34 pm 
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ali wrote:
John McEnroe says "You Cannot Be Serious!" :bangbang:

Ali :baaa:

Don't understand your post? I just need some clarification on what would be the best method of getting the best NTSC progressive quality?

Ayngaran are doing film to NTSC digibeta then from that encode to progressive dvd format which is then transfered onto a DLT. and I think that is not the right thing to do. With your help I can maybe understand what is better so I can give another method which will help us to enjoy thier DVD's.
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Zoran009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:17 pm 
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Rana/Nath/Ganti/dragun.....all PROG CHAPS!! Where r u? Give man a hint???
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ganti
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:40 pm 
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It is really very good news. Thanks Sunny for all your efforts. Although I can't help you in this regard right now, I will try to find some info. I hope Rana/Nath/Ali has some info?
And also I have one more request/suggestion to you/Ayngaran. I have seen excessive DVNR in their DVD's. Looks pretty bad on a projector based system. I hope they take care of this ALSO when they go to progressive.
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rana
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:27 pm 
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arsh wrote:
Rana/Nath/Ganti/dragun.....all PROG CHAPS!! Where r u? Give man a hint???

Unfortunately I don't know much about the Digi Beta Formats.

I can only imply by correlating few observations.

ASOKA was shown on Showcase TV for which they had received a Digi Beta NTSC Master. The length and speed of the Film indicates the Digi Beta NTSC tape was a copy of the PAL master. I imply from this that Digi Beta can be anything. PAL, NTSC or may be digital format video as well.

Converting from PAL to NTSC implies that Progressive format has most probably vanished. If the DVD is to have NTSC format, Film to Digi Beta master should be NTSC or HD.

Field averaging must not be applied to match discrepancies in frame rates. Film frames should be kept in tact. 24 frames per sec to 60 field conversion should be done by adding an extra field (half frame) every 5th field.

Progressive: Instead of recording the additional field, the DVD encoding should flag the player to repeat the previous field. These flags are used by Power DVD type softwares to reconstruct the original film frames.

Pseudo-progressive: Instead of the flags, the additional field can actually be recorded (un-necessarily). Flags are absent, but Pixel to Pixel comparing players will throw away the un-neccessary fields and recreate the film frames, but not as good as for Flagged DVD. But, why to record un-necessary fields. The saved space can be used for higher bit rate or for longer feature.

Averaged Fields: All frames will be fuzzy or have multi-images. You can not get the Original Film Frames Back.

Rana



Edited By rana on 1041878075
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sknath
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:53 pm 
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Sunny as Rana has stated... just take care of the following

Digibeta...can be of two types (theoretically..like Rana I too dont know how they create one )

Think abt this... If you have a set of negatives.. how would you you scan them to your computer ?... You would scan each negative and put them on ur machine. In a similar manner each and every negative, when scanned on to a digital medium should give us a near perfect replica of the original film image. I would recommend you watching the restoration process for the film Vertigo (special features... they talk briefly abt it)..
What DEI and other Hollywood companies generally do is... bypass the "digibeta" production and as the negatives are scanned the encoding process is done (in a manner suggested by Rana in the previous post)...

If however there have been some differences in producing the digibeta tapes... (like film to PAL transfer)... (as you gave an example of Asoka), then it would be prudent to encode the digibeta transfer in a PAL format... No conversion should be made to NTSC in that case.. It will screw up the process !

Hope this helps... awaiting the quality stuff from Ayngaran :)
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Shahran Sunny Audit
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 7:40 pm 
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Thanx for the advice guys,

I am intrested the section Snknath mentions that many bypass the digitbeta process and go right to the in the scanning and encoding from the negative to a DVDfile. That seems a better process. How is that done, and with what machines? I will mention this to DVD team at Ayngaran.
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sknath
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 8:07 pm 
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Shahran Sunny Audit wrote:
Thanx for the advice guys,

I am intrested the section Snknath mentions that many bypass the digitbeta process and go right to the in the scanning and encoding from the negative to a DVDfile. That seems a better process. How is that done, and with what machines? I will mention this to DVD team at Ayngaran.

Sunny , you can find the info from the web, (any good dvd authoring company should have that info...or u can check some dvd authoring specs.. specified by the DVD group)... But i think it shouldnt be any different from how you scan a simple negative using ur scanner... However as the encoding is done simulatenously, you would need to do the 2-3 pulldown with the scanned images.
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sknath
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:32 am 
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Also Sunny.. make sure you have the right frame rate 24Fps (actually 23.97 fps) when encoding the video data.

In both t6he pseduo progressive and interlaced case you will have 30 fps (with a slight difference...)

Question here Sunny.... If Ayngaran can procure the original negatives of this film why dont they get their dvds mastered by a professional authoring company .. Like any company based in the USA ?
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DragunR2
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:15 am 
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I thought D1 was usually the format to which film is transferred for making DVDs. What exactly is Digibeta, and does Ayngaran currently use it?
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sknath
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:45 am 
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DragunR2 wrote:
I thought D1 was usually the format to which film is transferred for making DVDs. What exactly is Digibeta, and does Ayngaran currently use it?

Well i dunno abt the others.. but their Avvai Shnamughi DVD is completely interlaced.... mostlikely screwed up during the digibeta procedure... Film->PAL->NTSC !
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Zoran009
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:59 pm 
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Well!!excuse me!!may I ask from all prog pundits here!!? if SD used their specified technique for their latest Abhinetri dvd!?

and whether DEI were using the same above mentioned technique!!?
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bhaskar
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 6:03 pm 
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With all due respect to everyone involved with this thread, wouldn't it be better to ask professional companies who do progressive transfers eg UK DVD companies?
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rana
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:02 pm 
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BRASIN STORMING:
Just trying to put 2 and 2 together.

1) What is Digi Beta??
I have heard the terms, NTSC Digi Beta Master (ASOKA on Showcase), PAL Digi Beta Master. I don’t know if Digi Beta supports 480P x 24 fps or 1280 x 768 x 24 fps or other 24 fps formats.

2) I think, NTSC Digi Beta Master implies that the master is in NTSC which does have 60 recorded fields per sec. This implies that additional fields have been added in the recording. If the additional fields are repeatd fields, then it is a Pseudo Progressive Master. So if the NTSC master is used to make the DVD, DVD can’t be better than the limits of NTSC. Moreover, unless the repeaed fields are detected and discarded, you can’t get a Progressive DVD. It’s obvious, as sknath pointed it as well, that a copy from NTSC frame can’t be as good as a picture scanned from the Film Negative or Positive.

3) The same goes for PAL Digi Beta Masters.

4) Note that in Progressive DVDs, repeat flags are set for fields to be repeated by the player and hence the un-necessary fields aren’t recorded. Can the same be done with Digi Beta Tape? I don’t know.

5) It appears that most Indian DVDs are made using Digi Cine-tel on PAL or NTSC Digi Beta Master. If the master is Digi Cine-tel NTSC, the NTSC DVD turns out to be Pseudo Progressive. If the master is Digi Cine-tel PAL, the NTSC DVD will be a mess.

6) If field averaging is used to overcome the frame rate differences, be it in “Film to Digi Beta” or “Digi Beta to MPEG (DVD)”, the result will be a wholly mess, proudly claimed as “Smooth Viewing” by SHEMAROO.


Rana
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