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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:52 am 
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DragunR2 wrote:
enjoy wrote:
If he is having so much of popularity among people then that itself suggests that he is good actor.

Popularity doesn't prove anything. SRK and Julia Roberts are immensely popular, but they're not good actors. McDonald's is probably the most numerous restaurant in the world but the food is crap. Reality TV in the US gets great ratings. Britney Spears concerts sell out. There are tons of examples of popular trash.

I don't watch AB's 70s and 80s films religiously, and I prefer other types of films, but he was good at them, and I can't imagine anyone else doing his roles.

Sholay itself is a good but flawed film. It's sort of silly (even for this film) for two guys to defeat all those men. The film is a good example of taking foreign influences, namely Kurosawa, Leone, and Renoir :hmm:, and creating something uniquely Indian with them.

Exactly my point. I don't know what puts it into people's heads that popularity = good quality. Let's see what else is popular in this world. Well to start with there're drugs, prostitution, dowries, Coca-cola, Ambassador cars, Indian state ministers and Govinda.

So don't tell me "having so much of popularity among people itself suggests that he is good actor." Popularity is not a virtue.

That said, I do not hate AB. In fact, I think he gave decent performances in his older films. But I do think that he is overhyped beyond reason.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 5:42 pm 
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Let me add two more to the "popularity doesn't = good quality" list...

Lagaan & Devdas (two decent films but not even close to masterpieces, as people make them out to be)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:37 pm 
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If DEVDAS (2002) and SHOLAY (1975) are not considered as MASTERPIECES, would respondents of this thread care to suggest other titles which they feel are masterpieces?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:20 pm 
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Lagaan, 1942 - A Love Story, Satya, Dil Chahta Hai and Mission Kashmir are some all time favourites of mine. But they have too many flaws to be masterpieces - the best of the lot probably being Lagaan.

Some 'full-fledged' masterpieces to me are The Lord Of The Rings films, The Royal Tenenbaums, almost anything by the Coen brothers, Amelie, etc (to name some relatively popular ones :) ). But really, it's quite subjective.

Of course there's probably a whole lot of 'small scale' good stuff out there waiting to be discovered but is lost in an avalanche of popular trash.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 7:58 pm 
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So what you are essentially saying is that no INDIAN film is worthy of being classed as a MASTERPIECE, and perhaps Lagaan comes close only because of its British flavour? And I thought Zulm was for Bollywood fans...

:)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 17, 2003 8:32 pm 
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"If DEVDAS (2002) and SHOLAY (1975) are not considered as MASTERPIECES, would respondents of this thread care to suggest other titles which they feel are masterpieces?"


My top 3 Hindi films (which I consider all masterpieces)

- Maachis (1996)
- Satya (1998)
- Mother India (1957)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:10 am 
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A "masterpiece" shouldn't always necessarily be judged based on it's consistent technical features. I think a lot of great art is simply ahead of its time, and I also think that artistic (not commercial) success is a highly personal matter.

My definition of a Good Film would be one that, in some way, expands my awareness of life, the world around me, or cinema. A Great Film, in my estimation, is one that expands the boundaries of cinematic language in order to communicate something new and interesting about life and our world.

Ramesh Sippy's Sholay, for instance, fits comfortably within the canon of India's prime classic film today and a film that wouldn't provoke any sense of radical challenge in your average film buff today. But, in its time, it was a work of such bold invention that it literally caused a craze up on its debut! Such Films, are at its most effective, in my opinion, when it engages with the viewer with a full-on active aesthetic experience. When I pay money to sit in a theatre for two-three hours and watch a film I want something out of it beyond a casually enjoyable, but uninvolving and forgettable time. The difference here may well lie in what I expect for my ten bucks as opposed to what others expect out of theirs. My time is valuable and money, to be trite, certainly doesn't grow on trees. I want, ideally, to see a movie that uses film as a medium to its fullest potential in order to, one way or another, communicate something to me that will potentially enrich my life. That's a lot to ask, I realize, but why should I settle for less when there are indeed filmmakers out there today (Benegal, Bhansali, Nihalani, Ratnam, Sivan, Godard of course, Gulzar, Vinod Chopra, Lynch, Scorsese) who do consistently provide such worthwhile filmic experiences.

Similarly, James Joyce's A Patriot Of An Artist As A Young Man, while still probably a rather difficult read for, say, an average high school student, has gradually become accepted alongside the works of the Old Masters as a seminal piece of literature, but in the 1930s, both its style and subject matter sent heads spinning among the literary acedemia, not to mention the average reader.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:59 pm 
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armaan wrote:
So what you are essentially saying is that no INDIAN film is worthy of being classed as a MASTERPIECE, and perhaps Lagaan comes close only because of its British flavour? And I thought Zulm was for Bollywood fans...

:)

British? What's that got to do with anything. I can't help (nor can Gowariker) it if its the Brits who ruled India and brought cricket and not the Zimbabweans. Might as well say its the Bhojpuri flavour that I'm favouring as it is my ethnicity.

Just because I'm a Bollywood fan doesn't mean I have an obligation to lower my expectations if Bollywood doesn't deliver.
Quote:
DVD Collector Posted on Dec. 18 2003,01:10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A "masterpiece" shouldn't always necessarily be judged based on it's consistent technical features. I think a lot of great art is simply ahead of its time, and I also think that artistic (not commercial) success is a highly personal matter.


Great art is quite often avant garde. At the risk of sounding elitist (yet again! :rolleyes: ), it is pretty pointless teaching calculus to a 3 year old.

And though this would seem artificial and pretentious, I have a tendency to only classify works which I am in some awe of, and those with the slightest bit of ambiguity in the artist's motive, as masterpieces. The issue of technical problems shouldn't even rise as far as masterpieces are concerned.

In a nutshell, if I look at a film and decide, 'I could've done that. Or maybe even better,' then it's no masterpiece. But hey, that's just me. :baaa:




Edited By Aryan on 1071912760


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:47 pm 
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Guru Dutt's Pyaasa is a masterpiece.....


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:30 pm 
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Not sure what the official defination of a masterpiece is, but even some of Bollywood's inferior films are better than inhuman trash like Lord of the Rings



Edited By armaan on 1071783141


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 9:50 pm 
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Aryan wrote:
Just because I'm a Bollywood fan doesn't mean I have an obligation to lower my expectations if Bollywood doesn't deliver.


Strange? Why be a FAN of Bollywood if it has NEVER delivered to your expectations? I thought fans by their very nature are impressed with whoever or whatever they are fans of!

:p




Edited By armaan on 1071839611


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2003 11:50 pm 
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monizam wrote:
There are so many inhuman trashy hollywood films that even
bad bollywood ones will look good.


Vice Versa :baaa:


I love all films. Hollywood films, cult films, indie films, hong kong films, japanese films, mallu films, tamil films, hindi films...all of 'em. There are a good and bad in all of them. Agreed? I'm glad I have a chance to watch and learn a lot from them.
:)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:14 am 
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Amitabh Bachchan should be an icon of decay and cliche. His every performance is worst than the last one. AB can't play a screen character with his egoism taking over.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:33 am 
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Chirpy_Sabz wrote:
Guru Dutt's Pyaasa is a masterpiece.....

I second that.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2003 6:45 am 
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monizam wrote:
There are so many inhuman trashy hollywood films that even
bad bollywood ones will look good.

There's utter crap in both industries, and while good films from different industries can be compared, trash is trash, no matter what the language. If pressed to choose between seeing either Bringing Down the House and Boom again, I'd choose suicide :)


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