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rana
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 11:59 am 
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Posts: 6146
Advanced DVD Quality Indicators
From TV Promotions

There are some clues one can get about the DVD PQ from the NTSC Promotions. Actual DVD may come out different, but most likely, the DVD PQ will be the same as TV promotions.

Here is what I observed and what I observed the past weekend:

TEST:
I recorded the local TV broadcast which contains promotional clips for the forthcoming films and newly released DVDs.

As the clips originate from Film which is 24 frames per second and the TV broadcast is NTSC, it is easy to check what kind of a Cine-tel transfer that clip had.

Most of the promotional clips originate from the yet to be released DVD or its master. Obviously, the promotional clips are provided by the right holders and are an indicator of quality of the official DVD in that region.

Assuming you have a noise free spl effect VCR, cine-tel process can easily be checked by counting frame by frame for one or two seconds. The count will always be 30 in one second for NTSC broadcasts.

If you find that every 5th frame is a repeated frame, it tells you that the Cine-tel process from film to NTSC was right (it may or may not be the first copy or n’th copy). This shows that the DVD will either be progressive or pseudo progressive. If every 6th frame is a repeated frame, it still shows a pseudo progressive clip but the clip has gone through an extra PAL (or 25 frames per sec) conversion. Pixel comparing line doublers can re-assemble the original film frames.

If you find all 30 frames distinct frames, then it is field averaged and original film frames can’t be re-created. This is 100% Interlaced. Every frame either will have excessive blurring and/ or multi-images.

RESULTS:
Based on above, I noticed the following from the past weekend’s (Jan 25, 26)broadcasts:

JISM
Pseudo-progressive (If flags are set in DVD, it may be Progressive). Every 5th frame is a repeated frame.

MEHBOOBA
Pseudo-progressive (If flags are set in DVD, it may be Progressive). Every 5th frame is a repeated frame.

GURU
Pseudo-progressive (If flags are set in DVD, it may be Progressive). Every 5th frame is a repeated frame.

DO RAASTE
100% Interlaced

CHAUDHVIN KA CHAAND
100% Interlaced

DIL KA RISHTAA
100% Interlaced

DUM
100% Interlaced
(update: TV clip on Feb 8, was Pseudo-prog)




If we look for these indicators and post our findings here, we can get some advance idea of DVD quality to come.

If this type of info is useful, it will be nice to keep it coming.



Rana

P.S.
It'll be nice to inculde the PQ (color, sharpness etc) as well, but from the clips of the above 7 movies, all "100% Interlaced" clips were worst than the proper Cine-tel converted (Pseudo-progressive) clips.



Edited By rana on 1044794163
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Zoran009
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2003 5:01 pm 
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Jism is PSEUDO prog, I agree!!
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rana
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2003 12:08 pm 
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A few more clips that I recorded off TV, all turned out "100% Interlaced". No repeated frames or Pseudo-progressives. May be averaged fields and/ or PAL to NTSC conversion.

Kuchh To Hai
TALAASH
Koi Mere Dil Se Poochhe
Aapko Pehle Bhi Kahin Dekha Hai
Boys Are Best
KHUSHI
PINJAR
Chura Liya Hai Tumne

Rana
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rana
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 12:34 pm 
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Yesterdays TV promotional clips showed:

DUM
Pseudo-progressive.

Kabhi Kabhi:
100% interlaced.

KHUSHI:
100% interlaced.

Rana

P.S.
In the first post, I said DUM clip was interlaced. The clip shown yesterday was Pseudo-prog??
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mhafner
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 5:26 pm 
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If you already have the DVD an early indicator of quality
is the censor's card at the beginning.
- Are the letters sharp?
- Is the card moving around or standing steady?
- Are the letters and lines a flickering mess or stable and
solid?
- Is there EE visible?
- Is it noisy/grainy?

If the card looks very good the rest shoud look decent too.
If the card is a mess so is the rest.
:laugh:
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bhaskar
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 5:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:26 pm
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Location: Birmingham
rana wrote:
There are some clues one can get about the DVD PQ from the NTSC Promotions. Actual DVD may come out different, but most likely, the DVD PQ will be the same as TV promotions.

Most of the promotional clips originate from the yet to be released DVD or its master. Obviously, the promotional clips are provided by the right holders and are an indicator of quality of the official DVD in that region.

How do you know this? Is this actually stated on the programmes that show the clips, or have you deduced this yourself?

The reason I ask this is that most of the clips shown on the Indian channels over here come straight from Indian promos, which I believe are released by the music company over there (correct me if I'm wrong). And it also seems strange that a clip from a film like Pinjar, which is unlikely to be totally complete (seeing as the release date is not yet stated on Indiafm) would originate from a DVD of the movie.
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rana
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:47 pm 
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Bhaskar, I am speculating it myself. That's why I call it indicators only.

Promotional clips are usually from the newly released DVD or soon to be released DVD and sometimes from soon to be theatrically released film. No matter what, I haven't seen anyone, other than Indians, to transfer film to NTSC video with averaged fields. Cinetel conversion of film to NTSC video requires every 5th frame to be repeated. Field averaging is a no no.

Sometimes they are just to promote a certain DVD. In any case, promotional clips are there to advertize. If the promotional clip itself is improperly done (100% interlaced i.e. averaged fields; or gone through PAL to NTSC conversion), then the actual product won't be any better. Promotional clip just fortells what PQ you you will get at best.

I agree, sometimes promotional clips don't come from the DVD or it's master. Perhaps that's why, 2 weeks ago DUM clip was interlaced with averaged fields and yesterday's clip was Pseudo-progressive. Pseudo-progressive TV clip may end up as Progressive DVD if flags are set in DVD.

Moreover, out of so many clips that I have seen over the last 2 - 3 weeks, let's see how many turn out with same DVD characteristic. If there is a corelation, it will be great.

I would like other zulmis to contribute to these early indicators as well. Specially, if we find a corelation between the clips and the DVDs.

Rana

Today's clips:
Baaz and Kaash Aap Hamare Hote, both were 100% interlaced (averaged fields).
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rana
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:09 pm 
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mhafner wrote:
If you already have the DVD an early indicator of quality
is the censor's card at the beginning.
- Are the letters sharp?
- Is the card moving around or standing steady?
- Are the letters and lines a flickering mess or stable and
solid?
- Is there EE visible?
- Is it noisy/grainy?

If the card looks very good the rest shoud look decent too.
If the card is a mess so is the rest.
:laugh:

Hi Michel,

The promotional clips that they show on TV, often have gone through a few copying cycles already. So sharpness of the DVD picture is not judgeable. But, whether the TV frames (fields) are from one film frame or an averge of successive frames is checkable from the VHS recordings.

The PQ of Indian DVDs has been going downhill. In the beginning, DVDs were better and most were Progressive. When EROS-DEI split, EROS and other brands (except DEI) DVDs turned up Interlaced, but still were Pseudo-progressive (no field averaging). Now they have gone one step further. Most of the current crop of DVDs have field averaged picture.

At the time of starting this thread, I just wanted to find out which forthcoming DVDs may be Pseudo-progressive. From the clips of the last 3 weeks, I have seen that 80% of the new crop of DVDs have field averaged picture. I wasn't expecting it to be this bad.

Rana



Edited By rana on 1045498650
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rana
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:17 pm 
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This weekend’s clips on TV indicated:

Satta Pseudo-progressive
Roti Kapda Aur Makaan Pseudo-progressive (Obviously, as DEI DVD is Prog)
Johny Mera Naam Pseudo-progressive
Prem Pujari Pseudo-progressive

In the same feature where Johny Mera Naam and Prem Pujari clips were included, there were another 25-35 Dev Annand Movie’s clips but were all field averaged interlaced.

Love at Times Square Field Averaged Interlaced
Dil Ka Rishta Field Averaged Interlaced
Company Field Averaged Interlaced


Another clip was from Tajmahal (Pradeep Kumar). The video was so bad, it is impossible to identify whether it is Pseudo-prog or field averaged.

Rana
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rana
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:42 pm 
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Jee Aayan Nu DVD is Pseudo prog.

Rana
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Zoran009
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:41 pm 
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Je aya nu! is relatively better transfer? no sub titles, and dont remember, Was Sound DD 5.1?
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rana
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:50 am 
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rana wrote:
Bhaskar, I am speculating it myself. That's why I call it indicators only.

promotional clips are there to advertize. If the promotional clip itself is improperly done (100% interlaced i.e. averaged fields; or gone through PAL to NTSC conversion), then the actual product won't be any better. Promotional clip just fortells what PQ you you will get at best.

I agree, sometimes promotional clips don't come from the DVD or it's master. Perhaps that's why, 2 weeks ago DUM clip was interlaced with averaged fields and yesterday's clip was Pseudo-progressive. Pseudo-progressive TV clip may end up as Progressive DVD if flags are set in DVD.


Rana

Today's clips:
Baaz and Kaash Aap Hamare Hote, both were 100% interlaced (averaged fields).

Just like DUM turned up Pseudo-prog two weeks later (it was field averaged interlaced at first), BAAZ comes up as Pseudo-prog in today's clip.

Rana
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rana
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:55 pm 
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On Suday, they showed a feature on Yash Raj. Lots of clips from YRF films were shown ( 20 - 30). As per credits for the whole 1 hr program, of which Yas Raj Feature was about 10 min, clips were provided by Asian, E4U, EROS and Spark.

Most of the clips were field averaged. A few exceptions were:

Chandni Pseudo-Prog
DDLJ Pseudo-Prog
DTPH Pseudo-Prog
Mohabbatein Pseudo-Prog

All others were field averaged.

Questions/ Comments:
1) I don't know what was the source of Chandni clip. Is YRF version Progressive or Pseudo-prog??

2) DDLJ, DTPH and Mohabbatein of course have Progressive DVDs by YRF.

3) Lamhe clip was field averaged. Is the newly released DVD by YRF like this??

Rana
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rana
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2004 8:49 pm 
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I'm sure, I did post Film to NTSC conversion sightings on NTSC TV, in a more recent thread, but this is the only thread I could find from Search Engine.

Anyway, most of the TV promotional clips these days have been PAL to NTSC converted and their DVDs too.

This past weekend, Mission Mumbai clip on TV was Film to NTSC so I expect MB DVD 'not to be Field Averaged'.

Rana
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