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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2002 12:51 pm 
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Location: National Capital Region (India)
First of all let me state that I don't consider myself a guru of anything and/or an expert in Home Theater, but I do have long years of experience with Home Theaters. Both as a user and also as a professional dealing in Home Theater equipment/setups. My involvement with Home Theaters goes back to 1986, when I bought my first Pioneer Stereo Receiver and HI Fi stereo VCR, at the time I was living in the US which made upgrading a lot simpler and cheaper compared to now when I live in India. Since then I have gradually updated my system with the newer technologies. I bought my first Laser Disc player and Dolby Surround Receiver in 1989, which I upgraded to a Dolby Pro Logic Receiver in 1990. I bought a Dolby Digital Receiver almost within the first few months of its appearance in the market. Since then also I have changed my Receiver several times, going thru various brands, namely Pioneer, Pioneer Elite, Yamaha and finally Denon. But in my professional capacity I have had the opportunity to work with several other brands also, some that are from the very high end of the market. I have done Home Theater setups costing upto US$75000. I have over the years also accumullated a collection of over 300 Laser Discs and approx 1300 DVDs. All this I mention only to show that I do have a little if not much experience and knowledge in this field. By the way, I also have friends/clients who own some of the nicest movie theaters in Delhi and therefor I have had a chance to work with professional theater equipment also.

Regarding Home Theater and the issue of Sound formats let me state my understanding of the terms:

Channels = Number of decoded signals output.

Tracks = Number of actual/discreet encoded channels, which may or may not have further channels matrixed into them.

Stereo = A term used to describe a 2 channel system.

Encoding formats:

PCM = Pulse Code Modulation = The technical term for how the sound is encoded on a regular Redbook CD. It is also one of the permissable alternates (alternate to Dolby Digital/AC3) for DVD encoding. PCM is the only Digital fromat that does not use some form of compression.

Dolby Surround = Encoded 2 analogue tracks / Decoded 3 channels

Dolby ProLogic = Encoded 2 analogue tracks / Decoded 4 channels

AC3 = Audio Coder 3 = Literally the third audio coder developed by Dolby Labs. In the intial stages of Dolby's Digital Format it was simply known as Dolby Surround - AC3

Dolby Digital/AC3 (in the case of Laser Discs) = Encoded 5 to 5.1 digital tracks / Decoded 5 to 5.1 channels

Dolby Digital/AC3 (In the case of DVDs)= Encoded 1 to 5.1 digital tracks / Decoded 1 to 5.1 channels

Dolby Digital EX = Encoded 5.1 digital tracks / Decoded 6.1 channels

DTS = Encoded 5.1 Digital tracks / Decoded 5.1 channels

DTS ES = Encoded 5.1 digital tracks / Decoded 6.1 channels

DTS ES 6.1 (also known as DTS ES discreet) = Encoded 6.1 digital tracks / Decoded 6.1 channels

MLP = Meridian Lossless Packing = A lossless compression format used to encode 5.1 channels of very high quality audio. It is the standard for DVD Audio. IT is also one of the contenders for the audio specs of a future HD DVD format.

SDDS = Sony Dynamic Digital Sound = A digital format, with upto 8 discreet channels, a format restricted to theatrical releases only. As per Sony no plans of a Home Theater version ever.

Post Processing:
Post processing in Receivers/Pre Pros has been around for ages, and from numerous manufacturers with various names, more generacally known as DSP modes. Yamaha is known to have taken the lead in this field previously. These are pseudo formats and not related to encoding or actual decoding but rather they are applied post decoding.

DTS Neo = Post processing to create 6.1 channels from stereo encoded signals.

Dolby ProLogic II = Decoding of Dolby ProLogic and further Post processing to create 5.1 channels of higher dynamics than the decoded signals from the original Dolby ProLogic decoder. It is also a post processing format that creates 5.1 channels from stereo encoded channels.

Denon 5.1/6.1/7.1 stereo = Post processing to create 5.1/6.1/7.1 channels from Stereo encoded signals

Almost all manufacturers now have something similar to the Denon 5.1/6.1/7.1 stereo mode.

Regarding THX, now this requires a more indepth explanation to avoid confusion. Previously there was only one kind of certification by the name of THX. THX is nothing more than just a certification of certain quality standards, except in the case of Receivers/Pre Pros. In the case of Receivers/Pre Pros THX also does some post processing. But this processing does not involve decodiing and/or increasing the number of channels. At a later stage THX split up their certification into standards, namely 'THX Select' & 'THX Ultra'. 'THX Ultra' has now been labelled 'THX Ultra 2' due to certain changes in the certification process.

Equipment that meets with THX approval falls into either the Select or the Ultra2 category. While Select-certified gear tends to be less expensive than Ultra2 gear, the labels aren't based on quality or price but on the room size the component is best suited for. THX Select gear works best in smaller rooms or in rooms where you'll be sitting closer to the speakers, while Ultra2 gear is suited for larger rooms (approximately 3,000 cubic feet or more) where you are likely to be sitting farther away from the speakers.

Ultra2 was introduced in 2001 to replace the 10-year-old Ultra specs, which were the same as the specs for THX certification before the program was split into the Ultra and Select categories. The main mission of the Ultra2 program is to simplify and improve film and music playback over 5.1- and 6.1-channel systems.

The lowest THX rating, THX Select, is awarded to good midprice gear, while THX Ultra2 (an upgrade of plain old THX Ultra) is reserved for high-performance, premium-price gear with state-of-the-art features.

THX Ultra2 differs from its predecessor only in two ways. One by mandating full 7.1-channel playback capabilities for Dolby Digital Surround EX and DTS-ES soundtracks, which add a back surround channel for one or two speakers centered behind the listening position. To be certified as THX Ultra2, a receiver has to provide not only decoding for 7.1 channels and processing to derive 6.1- or 7.1-channel playback from 5.1-channel sources, but also seven discrete amplifier channels as well as “boundary gain compensation” to help match a subwoofer’s output to the room acoustics regardless of its placement. The other change from the old THX Ultra to THX Ultra2 requires that a receiver have wideband component-video switching to handle signals from a progressive-scan DVD player or a high-definition TV (HDTV) tuner without picture degradation.

Do keep in mind, that THX in neither of it's two versions does any decoding, nor does it increase the number of channels. All THX post processing is limited to just de-colloration of the sound to suit home environments.

In closing, what I am trying to say thru this post, is that to decide about surround formats and how many types there are, one should take into account only the encoding and decoding process and not the post processing done after the decoding. Because if we were to start naming formats based on various claims of manufacturers based on their DSP capabilities, then believe me there would be no end to the number of formats.




Edited By Sanjay on 1038827517


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 10:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 1:14 pm
Posts: 2256
Location: National Capital Region (India)
arsh wrote:
I ASSUME YOU UNDERSTAND THOSE TERMS!!YOU JUST DONT HAVE A PROG SCAN DVD PLAYER AND PROG SCAN HDTV..REST YOU SEEM FINE!

NOW THERE IS HK/Mark Levinson/Lexicon VERSION OF LOGIC 7 TOO..THAT IS PSEUDO MATRIXED VERSION.(btw..I have logic 7 in my car!!!)

NOW..SO PLS SEE IF U CAN PICK EACH OF THESE TERMS AND GIVE US TECHNICAL/AND LAYMAN COHERENT DEFINITIONS...AND WE WILL ALL AGREE TO THAT..IF VALID!!

BTW!!I DO HAVE YEH DILLAGI DVD...SUNNY SUPERSOUND..IT DOES SAY IN CREDITS IN THE END DD EX!!I'LL DOUBLE CHECK! THOUGH!?

HINDI FILM MAKER DO NOT KNOW HOW TO RECORD THEIR 5.1 SOUNDS PROPERLY MOST OF THE TIME..THEIR REMIXES ARE NOT DONE EFFECTIVELY ACCORDING TO GENRE OF THE FILM.

I do understand all those terms, and I think I understand them well enough. My having, or for that matter not having, a Progressive Scan DVD player and/or HDTelevision, I think has no bearing on my understanding of these terms or the issue at hand in this thread. By the way I just recently bought the Panasonic RP82 DVD player that has Progressive Scan output, but since I don't have a display to match it, that feature is kind of useless for me right now.

Regarding your logic 7 system in your car, it is not a format but rather just another DSP mode amongst hundreds of such modes from numerous manufacturers, each claiming theirs to be the next best thing after sliced bread.

Regarding the "Dillagi" issue, and I think you have the title confused with another film, titled "Yeh Dillagi" which coincidentally starred the senior Deol, Dharmender, I based my list on what is stated on the Dolby site, which I assumed to be correct inspite of having my own doubts regarding it's correctness. Anyhow if you guys want I can confirm this info for sure, since a childhood friend of mine, Deepak Sharma, who was also the Associate Producer of "1931, Shaheed Bhagat Singh" is in the management of Sunny Super Sound Studios. It so happens that I shall be meeting him within a week while attending his sister's wedding and I shall try and remember to confirm regarding this issue.

I have tried to take each 'term' from your post and have given a simple description based on "my" understanding of the terms. Hope it will be of help to some.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 5:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2001 5:53 pm
Posts: 14989
OK!!Well done Sanjay!! for some body located in GOOD OLD INDIA!! I always had a great respect for your involvment!!

GOOD JOB!!

Now u got a PROG SCAN player tooo...rp-81 is a GOOD CHOICE!! It is around $200 in USA, but If u buy with multiregion/and pal/ntsc capable with conversion capability(that you wont need with pal/ntsc ) tv!!price goes up,!!

Now, question is if u are watching NTSC film, converted to PAL(not orig recorded in pal(note for rana ji)..then there is hardly any thing out there that does pal prog too..and hakers are V BUSY trying to achieve that!!In Asia/Europe you have multiformat dvd players, but they only do NTSC prog!!

Finally...u need a PROG capable display, that can pass 480p, to view ur additional video nirvana!!
on regular display, component video will just give you better, smooth picture and solid colors!!!U know that!!

Look into some widescreen LCD displays, that can work as multimedia monitors too, with RGB/COMPONENT/VGA connection!!or Plasma tv with HDTV capability!!plasmas max at 720p..still good enough and still have prob with black levels, and show picture ghosting/trailing!!
My personal favourites are from PIONEER/Elite with pure cinema 3:2 pull down!!Excellent picture!!

Panasonic is fine too..wide choices!1


NOW!!here :on your quote, I'll try to ask you to elaborate yaar!!

""""Dolby Digital EX = Encoded 5.1 digital tracks / Decoded 6.1 channels

DTS = Encoded 5.1 Digital tracks / Decoded 5.1 channels

DTS ES = Encoded 5.1 digital tracks / Decoded 6.1 channels

DTS ES 6.1 (also known as DTS ES discreet) = Encoded 6.1 digital tracks / Decoded 6.1 channels"""

DD EX/DTS ES(MATRIX)...I agree, 5.1 encoded..6.1 decoded!!kool...but all the films dont have that capibility in their orig recording? otherwise, pseudo ex is possible on native 5.1 sound tracks!!kool!!

Now comes question of DTS ES (discrete)..there are only a few handful films, capable of that sound track function, on dvd, depending if you have discrete decoder!!??

Now!! in DTS ES/DD Ex..you can decode ONE extra channel..matrixed, that you can send in ADDITIONAL..rear central(mono) speaker, or TWO REAR ADDITIONAL SPEAKERS(STILL MONO)..not discrete!! but possibly WIDER REAR SURROUND FIELD!! a la dolby prologic style!!

In case of DTS ES discrete!! that rear , matrixed info? can be DECODED as DISCRETE STEREO CHANNELS(2) that can be sent to two additional REAR SURROUND SPEAKERS, simillar to DD ex style!! THUS, kinda loosly refering it to DECODING as 7.1???what you say here!!

I agree...with most of your explaination!! but I have a point too...I agree in theatres you have 25 speakers, or YAMAHA DSP mode gives you TWO EFFECT channels, that DOES NOT MAKE it 30.1 or 9.1..AGREED! 100%.

NOW THX ultra..was mostly hard ware specification and cross overs set by THX style!! but you could POST PROCESS a DD EX/DTS ES...matrix signal as THX 6.1 post processing!!!I liked dynamics of that one better in BOTH THX ULTRA/SELECT recievers or AV processors!!

NOW THX came in with THX ULTRA II specs, processors..that can POST PROCESS even DTS DISCRETE! or 5.1/6.1??into kinda DTS DISCRETE style DECODING!! trying to create EXTRA REAR STEREO signal???

I would love any further clarification....hopefully mutualy educational..my learning curve is already going up!! ha ha!!
I dont know abt yours!! You might be already at SATURATION LEVEL..hmm, ha ha!!

BTW!! for THX ULTRA II is only possible in their a couple ULTRA level processor..not available with THX SELECT level!!


Pls. keep us posted, as your system is DEVELOPING!!

Another thing..I dont recomend all OLDIES! hindi films!! But If you are a rEAL FAN of hindi films, not watching and liking GUIDE is not a POSSIBILITY!! absolute MASTERPIECE THEATRE!! cheers!!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2002 5:47 pm 
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Sorry!! Sanjay, yaar missed these two points in your above post!!


I always, read your posts carefully, so i dont differ with facts!!

I did last one too..so far you had break!!

DILLAGI!! I always meant SUNNY DEOL DIRECTED...I might have named it wrongly..my apologies!!
There is NO QUESTION in my mind that KAJOL or HEMA starrer was in DD EX??? I watched that film, on SONY or B4u and on DVD both in the end credits, did say DD-EX!!

MY car system is LOGIC 7, I agree it is DSP mode!! and my CDS are not ENCODED in 7.1 channels>>>ha ha!!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 6:17 pm 
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For you EYES only!! as You can appreciate...kiya bolta re..lets get it?? hmm!!

Theatre Grand III!!


All new 7.1/9.1 channel design with two zones!

Since Bob Carver's entry into the home theater A/V preamp market years ago with the highly-acclaimed and award winning Sunfire Theater Grand, Bob and his team kept busy cooking up new ways to improve the design. The amazing Theater Grand II which followed was a huge success. Bob has done it again with his third generation Theater Grand III. This one redefines "Home Theater."


Like its predecessors, the Theater Grand III is foremost an audiophile-grade preamplifier. Bob and his team designed it to produce a warm and engaging soundstage – both your movie and music soundtracks will be smooth and dynamic. The Theater Grand III features numerous surround modes including Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Pro Logic II, DTS, DTS-ES, DTS Neo:6, and user-configurable all-speaker stereo. It also includes an incredible new digital implementation of Bob's wildly successful Holographic Imaging, which substantially adds to the acoustic space of any stereo recording.

The control system on the Theater Grand III takes into consideration the needs of the modern AV system. The Theater Grand III’s remote is a powerful new preprogrammed and learning LCD-based design (click HERE to see it). The Theater Grand III includes an RS 232 communication port to allow easy operation from any custom control system, as well as an IEEE-1394 (Firewire™) port for future expansion.

The Theater Grand III also includes an AM/FM tuner with 40 presets, an eight-channel input for DVD-Audio or SACD, eight balanced XLR outputs, a Phono stage, and much, much more. We urge you to see one right away at your local Sunfire Dealer (click the 'Dealers' link at the top or bottom of this page).





Auto signal sensing input switching – Automatically turns the unit on, selects your source and surround mode
7.1 Channel Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, DTS, DTS-ES, DTS Neo:6, and Dolby Pro-Logic II decoding, plus Sunfire's exclusive Side-Axis outputs for 9.1 channels total playback!
Bob Carver's awesome Holographic Imaging now in noise-free DSP for the ultimate soundstage enhancement of two-channel sources
Second zone can play sources independent of the main zone
Full-time digital downmix provides accurate two-channel output for tape recording, digital outputs, and second zone from multichannel digital sources
Nine channel (user settable) 'PARTY' mode engages all speakers from any two channel source
Direct two-channel analog bypass mode
Incredible new preprogrammed and learning remote control with LCD (click HERE to see it)
Bob Carver's awesome Dynamic Tuner Noise Reduction circuit dramatically improves clarity of weak FM stations
Additional simulated surround mode converts stereo inputs into five or seven channels of output
FM/AM tuner with Bob Carver's Dynamic Noise Reduction circuit and 40 presets
Three 100MHz+ HDTV compatible wide-bandwidth component video inputs and two outputs
Six audio/video inputs, each with audio, S-video and composite video
Three audio-only inputs, including Moving Magnet Phono input for LPs
Eight channel analog audio input using RCA connectors for DVD-A, SACD, or other external multichannel source
Digital audio (S/PDIF) inputs for six sources: four coax or optical, plus two coax only
Coaxial and optical digital (S/PDIF) outputs provide two-channel digital downmix from 5.1 sources
Balanced outputs for primary 7.1 channels
Four subwoofer outputs
Side-axis side speaker outputs for completely enveloping soundstage (total of 9.1 channels!)
Comprehensive all-digital bass manager with crossover frequencies of 40 to 160Hz
DSP tone controls
24-bit A-to-D converter and 24-bit/192kHz Multibit D-to-A converters for the ultimate in sound quality
Separate trigger outputs and infrared inputs for both zones
High-current (500mA total) trigger outputs easily handle the most power hungry accessories
Sunfire exclusive: FLASH memory upgradable by playing a CD!
IEEE-1394 (Firewire™) port for future expansion
Dimensions: 19" wide, 6.5" high, 15.75" deep
Two-year parts and labor warranty




Architectural model:
Industry standard width to allow installation in typical rack systems -- all other features identical to our standard 19" model
17" wide, 5.75" high (includes feet), 16.5" deep


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:41 pm 
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Location: columbus
Arsh,
I have almost all the important DTS ES discrete DVD's and have 6.1 set up. Which one do you think is the best demo disk? Can you rank some of the top disks?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:55 pm 
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ganti wrote:
Arsh,
I have almost all the important DTS ES discrete DVD's and have 6.1 set up. Which one do you think is the best demo disk? Can you rank some of the top disks?

The Haunting DTS version:

http://www.dvdfile.com/software/review/ ... ng_dts.htm

The DTS edition of THE HAUNTING represents one of the best, most aggressive sound experiences you'll ever have. The improvements audible in this release make for a completely compelling reason to replace the older release. While I know that a direct comparison between the 16 bit DD and 24 bit DTS seems irrelevant, the end definitely justifies the means. The soundtrack on the original release of THE HAUNTING was great, but this new Dreamworks release, with the added depth of DTS, is extraordinary.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:56 pm 
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Are u asking the ones...with DTS ES discrete sound tracks??

If yes!! there are only a few! available, along with a few more with DD EX AND DTS EX matrix!!

from my personal favourites!! depending upon your decoding procesor too...one is Haunting!! DTS ES discrete...man the whole house , surrounds you with haunts...I'll pick a few more..let me think about them..I think I have all the dicrete ones too!!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:57 pm 
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yaar dragun, we were writing at the same time..aap ne mera khayal chura liya!! ha ha!! bingo!! so ganti..2 for one!!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 11:15 pm 
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arsh wrote:
yaar dragun, we were writing at the same time..aap ne mera khayal chura liya!! ha ha!! bingo!! so ganti..2 for one!!

You know its a great disc if it is the first one TWO people think of! :cool: :laugh:

Gladiator is also a good DTS ES disc.




Edited By DragunR2 on 1038957366


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 12:59 am 
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GLADIATOR!!! yes and no??? GLADIATOR has much improved ambience and spaciousness in ARENA fights!! than 5.1 or EX only!! While HAUNTING..has so much DISCRETE SURROUND ACTIVITY..I simply LOVED it!!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 2:26 pm 
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Posts: 515
Location: columbus
1. Austin Powers in Goldmember
2. Bad Taste
3. Beastmaster
4. Bones
5. Blade 2
6. Can't Stop The Music
7. Chicken Run
8. Evil Dead, The
9. Gladiator
10. Haunting, The
11. Highlander
12. Lord Of The Rings: The Fellowship Of The Rings, The: Director's Cut
13. Maniac
14. Neon Genesis Evangelion: End of Evangelion
15. Opera
16. Rush Hour 2
17. Se7en: Platinum Series
18. Stunt Man, The
19. Suspiria
20. Vigilante
21. Watcher in the Woods, The
These are the available DTS ES Discrete list from Home Theater Forum.

My personnel favorite is Blade 2 as LOTR EE is also good but not remarkable when compared to the DD from the regular version.

Dragun and Arsh thanks for the recommendation of The Haunting; although I have watched the movie I never thought it is worthy of collection. But after all it seems like a demo disk(DTS) for sound.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 10:21 pm 
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I have not watched the Haunting in DTS ES. I have found some more reviews about the sound quality of the disk. It seems like first DTS ES disk. I will definitely buy this disk and let you know.


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