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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 5:54 pm 
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Chebji wrote:
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Progressive nature of authoring is what lets you fit more on a disc. You save 25% disc space or you can say, you can fit 25% more info on the same disc.

You may not care Prog/ Interlaced, but Prog is the reason for this quantity and quality on this disc.


Now that is the first practical answer i have heard to whether prog is better than interlaced. because as has been said on here before, you can have good interlaced and good progressive dvds in terms of sharpness, etc. for these 2 in 1 dvds, i can see how it would be better to free up more space. how about for regular dvds, wouldn't you want to use all the available space for a 2 hour movie? how would prog come in to help then, when you don't really need to save space (because it would be empty space, then, no?)? on these regular one-disc sets, it would seem to only change the combing artifacts, which not all interlaced dvds show unless you pause them. if you can tell me definitely that progressive is always SHARPER, or more detailed, or better color than interlaced, then i would agree with going progressive. if it doesn't really matter other than to save space, then it doesn't seem a big deal. all the best, rana,

Hasan

Chebji..have you heard abt the Super-BIT DVDs from CTHV ?... There you geta nice example of utilizing optimu disc space for Progressively encoded VIDEO... with sufficient bit rate left for a DTS soundtrack....
as for the other thing

Sikkey = coin
Insaan = person

and the meaning..maybe thats the difference between a man and a coin :)...( well i indulged in a lil bit sarcasm myself.. no offence though mate ! )


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 6:37 pm 
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Chebji wrote:
it would seem to only change the combing artifacts, which not all interlaced dvds show unless you pause them. if you can tell me definitely that progressive is always SHARPER, or more detailed, or better color than interlaced, then i would agree with going progressive. if it doesn't really matter other than to save space, then it doesn't seem a big deal. all the best, rana,

Hasan

1) You never see combing unless you force your system to show them. Checking Combing artifacts is just a technique people use to find out about the encoding method. What we have been calling Prog, Interlaced, Pseudo-prog, Film based, Video based etc etc, are all words of convenience and so are Combing Artifacts.
2) NTSC displays 60 images per Sec. Film has 24 frames per sec and are spread over 60 NTSC images in one Sec. As DVD info is like a Computer program, 24 film frames can be recorded in 48 half pictures and for the remaining 12 half pictures, instructions are given to DVD player to repeat the appropriate half pictures. (DVD medium could have recorded 24 full pictures per sec, but it has not been incorporated in the present standard). This is what we call Progressive (for film) and you can see it requires 48 half frames to be recorded instead of 60 half frames and hence requires 25% (or 20% depending on how you count it) less space.
3) Alternatively, the repeated half frames can actually be recorded un-necessarily. This is what we have been calling Pseudo-progressive.
4) Another method of converting 24 film frames into 60 individual video fields is just let the camera record at its pace and let the film run at its own pace. This results in multi-images in still video frames. You don’t see multi images in the moving image. This is what I call “Interlaced”. Actually, SHEMAROO has been advertising this to be a beneficial thing as “Smooth Motion”, but experts don’t agree with it.

The benefit of Progressive Film to DVD for DVD viewers is that equipment exists that can recreate the original 24 film frames at a higher resolution. Also, this is the default standard method of transferring Film on to DVD. One problem with Indian DVDs is that rarely do they treat it as Film to DVD conversion. Instead it can be NTSC master to DVD, NTSC-VHS to DVD, PAL Master to NTSC master to DVD, NTSC VHS to NTSC DVD, PAL VHS to NTSC VHS to NTSC DVD, PAL DVD to NTSC DVD, etc etc. Nothing can beat the straight from Film to DVD conversion.

If the source material (TV serials) contains 50 or 60 distinct half frames, that material has to stay that way. Here we have a certain resolution but 50 or 60 moving images.

In case of Film on DVD, why not get the extra resolution as there are only 24 moving images per sec.??

Regarding your questioning how can prog encoding improve Sharpness and PQ:
I agree, it can’t. But why we normally get better Sharpness and PQ with Prog encoding is due to the expertise of the DVD author and the right process in use for Film to DVD conversion. For those DVD authors, who are competent in Film to DVD conversion, there is no reason for them to record the extra (un-necessary) 12 half frames per sec.

Rana


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:02 pm 
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Sorry Rana,
I am going to repeat the same thing as you.

I want to highlight one important point.

A Progressive DVD does not offer any advantage for the people with regular TV sets, no matter how big the screen size is. As all NTSC TV's requires 59.94 Fields per Second video to display, all the film content needs to modify (from 24fps). What we see on a TV is Video no matter how it is originated. Most if not all DVD's precisely do the above. They encode or modify the content to display stuff (recorded on film) on a television set.

In order to see a film in its original form we need a display capable of displaying at 24fps and a player that can out put the same. At present only computer screens, projectors and HDTV's are capable of displaying such stuff.

A properly encoded DVD will allow the user to bring back the original frames (film frames). To take advantage of this one must need a progressive DVD player and a progressive display.

ForceWeave is a technique used to bring back the original frames with out counting the flags on the DVD. So when it tries to recreate the original frames from a poorly authorized DVD (we call them interlaced) it will show the motion artifacts we see on the image.

Smart Detect is a technique that switches between film and video depending on the flags. So when it detects the DVD is not flagged as film, it does not try to recreate the fields like forceWeave, instead it treats it as video and show them accordingly.

One more thing. I am not the one who started this progressive discussion, as in fact I have learned the word from zulm.net. Before that I simply assume all Indian DVD's are crap and I don't know way. I found it out from zulm that DEI makes progressive DVD's and others are not.

I guess most of us are here because we love Indian films and want to find out about the DVD quality and the related issues. And I bet most of us are DVD collectors too.

Rana,
Quote:
Regarding your questioning how can prog encoding improve Sharpness and PQ:
I agree, it can't.


With all due respect I differ the statement. A progressive image does not increase color or contrast but it definitely improve the sharpness because of the original film frames.




Edited By ganti on 1038945821


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:12 pm 
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ganti wrote:
With all due respect I differ the statement. A progressive image does not increase color or contrast but it definitely improve the sharpness because of the original film frames.

:baaa: I second that! I've seen enough of properly encoded progressive DVDs to tell the difference - to the point of not needing the force weave mode to detect if the DVD is progressive or not - you can just tell by playing it and 'feeling' the look of the video. Properly encoded progressive DVDs just have that distinct extra sharper look that you don’t get on interlace DVDs; interlace video always feels that much softer. Again you have to have seen loads of them on a the same screen for you to notice this difference. In my case it’s always been powerdvd and a monitor.

Ali :baaa:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:19 pm 
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Swagtam/welcome back ganti...aap aaey bahar aaii!! people were missing your wisdom pearls here!!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:22 pm 
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Arsh,
Thank you for the welcome. But found out there is nothing to cheer about the Indian DVD's any more except the one from SD.
:D


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:22 pm 
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I agree, ali, better, glossy look, precise image sharpness and not on 2D paper look..is kinda feel!! i associate with!!

Now colors!! are extremely GOOD/PRECISE on SHEMROO dvds!! but are not PROG!!

Believe me..I adore well mastered, well sourced prog dvd, but I'll be prob content, If all other SHIT is at least like SHEMROO dvds, even INTERLACED!!

BUt, yaar!! there are a lot IFS and BUTTSSS!!


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:25 pm 
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ali wrote:
ganti wrote:
With all due respect I differ the statement. A progressive image does not increase color or contrast but it definitely improve the sharpness because of the original film frames.

:baaa: I second that! I've seen enough of properly encoded progressive DVDs to tell the difference - to the point of not needing the force weave mode to detect if the DVD is progressive or not - you can just tell by playing it and 'feeling' the look of the video. Properly encoded progressive DVDs just have that distinct extra sharper look that you don’t get on interlace DVDs; interlace video always feels that much softer. Again you have to have seen loads of them on a the same screen for you to notice this difference. In my case it’s always been powerdvd and a monitor.

Ali :baaa:

I stand corrected.
So, Progressive pic does have extra Sharpness.
So, this is another advantage of Prog pic.

I never thought, Prog was the reason, I always thought, it was a coincidence.



Welcome back Ganti. If we hadn't heard from you today, I was going to start a new thread on the mystery, "Where is Ganti?". You did stop logging on to Zulm.net 2 min after one post where your name was mentioned jokingly by Arsh. We were worried.

Rana




Edited By rana on 1038947221


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:25 pm 
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you r right, some of shemroo stuff lately, had been, bit superior than others..take a look at shemroo..guide..waqt, RTGM(at least not as maili as YRF)..and finally..judaii and yes boss re released by eros for india/uk only kinda stuff..still have to find..REDONE..ISHQ!! cheers!!to be back!! :baaa:


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:33 pm 
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ali wrote:
I've seen enough of properly encoded progressive DVDs to tell the difference - to the point of not needing the force weave mode to detect if the DVD is progressive or not - you can just tell by playing it and 'feeling' the look of the video.

Ali :baaa:

The first time (3 yrs back) I read an article on Prog pic, where someone asked, "How do you tell if it is prog or not??". The Answer was, "I can tell just by looking at the pic, other methods are -------".

That's great Ali.

Rana


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:36 pm 
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Ranaji,
Sorry for the absence. I was busy and also did not found any thing interesting that makes me drag here from my busy schedule. OK. I am just kidding.
:D

Arsh,
Thanks for the recommendations. I will wait little longer to spend some more money as I just spend lot of money on the Hollywood DVD's (James bond box set 1, Band of brothers and LOTR EE apart from SWEP2)




Edited By ganti on 1038948017


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:47 pm 
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ganti yaar, i am not recomending for you to buy..but just take a look at some screen caps on zulm threads...


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:53 pm 
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Rana,
Quote:
So, Progressive pic does have extra Sharpness.
So, this is another advantage of Prog pic.

A progressive picture has lot of advantages over interlaced picture. You can tell by taking in to account of the disadvantages by interlaced picture.

1) Reduced vertical resolution and aliasing (jaggies)
2) Saw tooth type edge distortion (a.k.a. mice teeth,
combing, serrations)
3) Line flicker (inter-line twitter)
4) Scan line structure visibility
5) Lower image brightness (compared with progressive
scanning)
6) Field flicker
7) Line crawl

Of course copied from some web site.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:02 pm 
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thanks to all of you for clarifying prog vs. interlaced, lots of interesting stuff... if dei dvds, and (i assume) most hollywood dvds are what to judge prog by, then yes, i will agree that prog has a definite advantage over interlaced technique. i agree that dei dvds have more of a 'film' appearance than say a dvd from eros (looks like a vhs copy). my point was not to knock prog dvds or anything like that. i was only trying to say that if a dvd is sharp, well-detailed, good colors, then the prog/interlaced issue is not a big deal, wouldn't you agree? as others have said, those with 'regular' setups won't really notice the difference. maybe i can add an interesting experience.

according to what i've read thus far, i apparently have two displays which can output prog video: my laptop computer which i use 99 percent of the time (since i'm at school), and our display at home (an HDTV set, well, says hdtv-ready, but i assume it is still hdtv display, and merely requires and hdtv signal to display in high def). At home we have a 'regular' Sony dvd player, which sorry but i don't know the model number, it was around 150 bucks though when we got it about a year ago. the same dvds that i play in my laptop (take Kuch Kuch Hota Hai, for example, the non-anamorph version) look worse than on the hdtv set at home, and i don't think my sony player is prog player. so if a laptop can be considered a complete prog player, how come it doesn't look as sharp or detailed as it does when played on the hdtv (50 inches)? just curious as to your opinions on this matter. same thing when playing prog dvds, like mohabbatein, it looks better on the hdtv (much sharper, and nicer) than on my laptop. any comments?

thanks again for your replies, i am learning more about dvds, and that is good, as i pay close attention to dvd details like sharpness, colors, etc., etc.

Hasan

PS. Sknath, no prob on the sarcasm. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:08 pm 
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Chebji,

I am not sure whether I am getting it properly from you. But from what I understand your question is how come some DVD's does not look good on your computer when compared to the HDTV.

First of all your computer is progressive player with display. If you play a video (interlaced) on your monitor, it does not look good, as the software player has to use a special algorithm to show an interlaced picture on a progressive display.

Where as your HDTV can work as a regular TV with 60 fps, it does not has a problem to display a native 60fps video with out having to go to the extra conversion.

And may be the internal line doubler of your HDTV is working to give you a better picture. I recommend you to buy a progressive DVD player such as Pan RP62 or RP82, and make use of your display capabilities. (But only when use with a progressive dvd)




Edited By ganti on 1038953641


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