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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 9:39 pm
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Can anyone think of any Bollywood films that can compete with the best Hollywood movies (Citizen Kane, Lawrence of Arabia, The Godfather, Apocalypse Now etc) and be classed as true cinematic classics? The only one I can think of that comes close is Sholay.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 8:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2001 7:27 pm
Posts: 6146
Mughl-e-Azam
Pyasa
Kagaz Ke Phool
Mission Kashmir
Lagaan
Mother India
Ram Teri Ganga Mailee


Any Hollywood equivalents of:
Junglee
Raj Kumar (Shammi Kapoor)
Jai Santoshi Maa (like it or not, this film connected with the target audiences)
Naanak Naam Jahaaz Hai (this film too connected well with the target audience)
Jee Ayan Nu


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 3:18 pm
Posts: 254
to add to the ones mentioned above by rana:

Devdas (dilip kumar)
Satya
Vaastav
Deewaar (old one)

and now Swades


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:42 am 
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Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 11:54 pm
Posts: 834
Location: Chennai, India
The simple answer would be YES, we do have masterpieces. But alas comparing them will be like comparing apples with oranges. So instead of answering the post with a list I thought I will dive in to answer for a much bigger question (and probably a more relevant question) - why “bollywood” usually films don’t make it onto the international circle and always seem to fail to live up to “accepted international standards”.

The following is my effort in trying to understand this question. Before we start lets make the following assumptions , First we will only worry about Films that are the "Best of Bollywood" and "Best of Hollywood", for Hollywood churns out as much junk as bollywood does in a year. Second I am assuming that by bollywood you are implying movies that come out of India and not just Bombay and not restricted to musicals ( 99% of them are !) and this will include all regional films also.

For this exercise lets take Citizen Kane ( # 1 on the AFI list ) and Pyaasa ( #1 “bollywood” film in my opinion).

Don’t Read forward if you have seen both/either of the films

Citizen Kane Vs Pyaasa ( to compare them will take a PhD in film studies , so I have only taken one crucial scene in each film )

Lets look at the most crucial scene in Citizen Kane – This is the scene where we see the word Rosebud on a sled which is being tossed into the furnace. Instantly we start to understand what Orson Welles might have meant by R-o-s-e-b-u-d – a symbol of happiness, lost innocence, childhood memories that he was trying to regain so hard. A truly universal theme conveyed in the most fascinating way on film (ever ?). I could relate to this theme for I think there is a Citizen Kane in all of us and we start to realize this as we age and start to drift away from our childhood both in terms of time and space.

Lets switch to one of the crucial scenes in Pyaasa – This is the scene where Waheed Rehman follows Guru Dutt up the stairs. We hear the Kirtan (Aaj Sajan Mohe Ang Lagalo )in the background singing about Love and Longing with reference to our own deities Radha-Krishn. She wants to touch him, but does not do so and simply leaves. A lot of people might infer different things , but I think only an Indian viewer can relate to their relationship and ONLY an Indian will be “truly” moved ( a confession taken right from Iqbal Masood, Indian Express ).

Now my question would be how can a foreigner “truly” understand this scene which has more than 3000 years of culture behind it . Of course we seem to keep loosing our culture day by day but like they say, some things does not need any teaching , you are simply born into IT and that my friend is one of the reasons why “our” masterpieces fail to make it to “their” list. I am not concluding that no foreigner can understands “us”, all I am saying is that its impossible to convey these feelings that’s so uniquely ours to the all of “them”.

Citizen Kane and pyaasa are not too different, both protagonist have lost their naivety and it’s the society they have to blame for. One has lost it through acceptance and other through rejection. One would think that such universal themes does not need a “translator” but alas culture is a big wall to scale and we have so much of it. Remember even the great French new wave director Francis Traffaut dismissed Satyajit Ray’s Pather Panchali as a “Big Bore” when he first saw it and guess what, both 400 Blows and Pather Panchali are probaly the greatest coming-of-age films ever.

Citizen Kane was also helmed for its technical achievements, most importantly its cinematographer Gregg Toland and his usage of deep focus to allow composition of a shot to play a more important role. Now Pyaasa was not far behind in its technical achievements either, Guru Dutt is known to have pioneered the use of lenses with much longer focal length allowing him extreme close-ups ( who in India has the “guts” to show actors in close-ups !). His use of music and songs to move the narration forward is simply wonderful and seamless. Also to note is V.K. Murthy’s cinematography, simply put its brilliant. can you imagine this film in color now !


Verdict
What I am I trying to say is that don’t try to compare and contrast these institutes, both of them have their purpose and have so far served their fans well. Instead of trying to find a “best-of” between Citizen Kane and Pyaasa , do yourself a favor and get yourself a copy of the both DVD’s and enjoy both of them ( Pray-Pray that Criterion get the rights for Pyaasa and Kakhaz Ke Phool so we can enjoy it in its full glory). I love films and I can never think of this “or” that, but always want this “and” that. Some films don’t deserve rankings, they are films that are beyond any human conceived “star” system. Bottomline is, I would prefer Citizen Kane to Musafir any time of the day and similarly would prefer Pyaasa to Chronicles of Riddick ! . lets stop our obsession with the Oscars and simply enjoy the few good films that bollywood gives us instead .

That said, if you still want me to give you a list here then I would say Jalsaghar ( Satyajit Ray) would be the top contender. Other Honorable mentions include

- Pather Panchali ( the entire trilogy )
- Cloud Capped Star ( I Love this film, wish more people will get to know Ghatak)
- Pyaasa ( the GREATEST “indian” film)
- Arangetram (Tamil)

I am sure I am missing 100’s of other movies and that’s because I have either not seen them or don’t seem to remember them right now, pardon me for that.


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