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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2011 10:51 pm 
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I've been reading comments about this issue in various reviews (particularly by anibap) for a number of Indian BD's.

I recently decided to get one using Amazon UK's free shipping offer to see how bad the issue was. The title I got was Love Aaj Kal and long story short, the reviews were right and it looked awfully dull and washed out on calibrated settings. But the reviews were also right and once you change the color space on your BD player and/or TV to RGB 0-255, the picture is very good. On my setup, I had to change it on the TV as the BD player did not have the option.

So stupid authoring issue aside (this should be such an obvious quality control error that the mind boggles), what I was wondering was whether the quality shift in most these Raised Black Level discs is the same as LAK once you alter the color space. For example, can I read the reviews and where only the black level issue is mentioned as a defect, would it be a reasonable assumption that the rest of the transfer is fine? Kaminey comes to mind but I'm sure there are others.


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 5:25 am 
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nitin77 wrote:
For example, can I read the reviews and where only the black level issue is mentioned as a defect, would it be a reasonable assumption that the rest of the transfer is fine? Kaminey comes to mind but I'm sure there are others.


Depends on the disc. There might be other issues, like DNR and inaccurate colors, besides the raised black levels.


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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 4:44 am 
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DragunR2 wrote:
nitin77 wrote:
For example, can I read the reviews and where only the black level issue is mentioned as a defect, would it be a reasonable assumption that the rest of the transfer is fine? Kaminey comes to mind but I'm sure there are others.


Depends on the disc. There might be other issues, like DNR and inaccurate colors, besides the raised black levels.
Even one defect makes the dvd defective and should not be sold to the public.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:46 am 
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DragunR2,

I realise that, hence my qualified question. I was asking were there is no mention in a review of other defects apart from this issue, whether it was reasonable to assume other defects were not present.

And I agree they shouldnt be letting these out of the door as they are, but thats another issue.


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:18 pm 
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@Nitin,

I have seen several Indian BDs and posted reviews involving issues related to incorrect colour space, colour banding, contrast hot spotting, clipped whites and blacks, DNR, EE and several others.

To answer your question, this color space issue is not the only issue in BDs and others can be found as well while reviewing the BD.

I started a thread on normal BD PQ quality issues for Indian BDs including similar issues as seen in Hollywood BDs and what they have fixed with remastering.
Thread link - http://forum.blu-ray.com/india/150255-d ... ssues.html

I think there are only a few people who really care about proper quality and are quite demanding in getting the best. Sanjay, Kailashu, Harvey_Dent, Anuraag and several others (can't remember all) comes to mind who care about quality aspects of Indian BDs.

Just to add to your thread, I have noticed 4 major issues with PQ on Indian BDs so far

1. Incorrect colour space while authoring / mastering - This is one of the most irritating and deal breaking defect for a standard user. Several Indian BDs are authored with RGB reference levels and not tested against SMTP and Rec 709 standards. This results in two issues which the authoring / mastering house makes. It either sets the black floor too high resulting in washed out images seen ona Rec 709 calibrated (or ven non calibrated ) display (Veer Zaara, Love Aaaj Kal, Partner, Bhool Bhulaiya and a few more) or it sets the black floor too low clipping the blacks (like in Fanaa). An average consumer who do not know or have the flexibility to change color space on their sets will ahve to live with a washed out or too dark image.

Sometimes even changing the color space won't work and one might have to tweak the gamma settings as well. In Veer Zaara entire first half has raised black floor and looks washed out. Doing RGB conversion helps but I also switch the gamma from Film to CRT to make it look right. In 2nd half slowly the picture changes and a reverse conversion will be required. What a pain!!!!

I came across this issue first time with Bhool Bhulaiya BD when people complained left and right looking at a washed out picture. Since I deal with different kind of materials on video, I knew it as a colour space issue and on using the RGB conversion, the image looked great and I posted my thoughts on Bluray.com. It took people some time to understand this conversion but some advanced users were able to test this and confirm the conversion. Fortunately very few BDs now turn up with this issue but I have no idea how this kind of issue can go past the quality gates. Why should average customer suffer this?

I have created few presets on my PJ to move from my calibrated preset to this kind of weird presets.

2. Contrast boost and hot spots
Although most people seem to be satisfied whatever BD is released I cannot live with this issues. It just ruins the entire viewing for me. It not only destroys detail in images it also renders a very video kind of look to a movie which is just unacceptable. I am quite vocal about this isse in my reviews.

3. Source Color space and temp - Again a not so well understood issue in the user and consumer community but a very important one for me and a few others in the forum while judging PQ of a BD.
A movie is meant to look filmic in a certain way and this can be witnessed while watching the movie in a good cinema. The things that renders this filmic look are - Warm color temp (subjected to directors intent), proper contrast and the right color space. I have seen many Indian BDs where the color looks like a HDTV or TV profile and not film like. This difference can be observed in HDTV broadcast of hollywood movies against the same BD. You will be surprised to see the difference and the impact it creates for a filming look.

There are only a few bollywood BDs where the image looks filmic with the right color profile, balanced contrast and correct color temp. Color space for Broadcast/TV/Satellite/HDTV is different from color space for films. I had a discussion with one of the authoring houses and I came to know that most of the HDCAM are digitally mastered for TV viewing and same source is provided for blu ray authoring. Most authoring houses do not / cannot change color profile and the source setting is used by default. So, if there is a problem in the source it goes into BD as well. People in India are more used to watch movies on Telly and if Broadcast/TV/Satellite/HDTV color profiles are used for authoring, no wonder it would look cold and video like and far from filmic. Indian BD authoring / mastering needs to invest in employing colourists who can oversee the process of conversion to replicate the same effect you see in cinema and what is stored in the original film master.

4. Edge Enhancement and DNR
I am clubbing these two since it is quite common to see these two applied together in Indian BDs. They first take the natural grain of film out using DNR and then they use EE to make it worse. This issue is worst issue for a HD transfer and must be avoided at all cost to do justice to the format. This is a crime.

I tend to point out all issues in my reviews that I noticed and can say that most issues broadly fall into one of the above. There are other other issues like specs and spots, overly saturated image, wrong cropping, aspect ratios etc which are equally important.

Audio related issues need to be discussed as well but requires a different mode or community to discuss since Audio setup for BD is still not standardised at least in India. One may have a shiny new LED based LCD TV but may not always have a good audio setup. And this is something that cannot be referenced with screenshot and other visual analysis.

I'd encourage people to form small groups around your area with people having a proper 5.1 or 7.1 setup and discuss audio matters and do reviews of your own. This will not only helps to understand the issues but also allows people to understand true BD audio potential, reasons for proper ausio setup and at the same time actively provide feedback as a group to studios and forums. I have recently become a member of a private club like this in UK and it is a great experience to share and learn.


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 10:49 pm 
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thanks Anibap.

I am aware of the issues you mention as they are present to lesser degrees on Hollywood and other foreign films too, I guess I am after an answer that may not really be possible as each indian BD seems to have specific issues of its own.

Could I ask this then, has Kaminey got any other major issues apart from incorrect color space?


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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 12:41 pm 
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Nitin,

I reviewed the Kaminey BD and posted a limited review @- http://forum.blu-ray.com/india/145552-k ... ost3447356

The Colour space issues was the main issue and I posted some images to explain. Apart from colour space issue, from what I can remember from my limited viewing there was

a. An apparent lack of sharpness - partly due to washed out picture as it affects contrast based perception of sharpness.
b. There were signs of DNR but I think EE was not a big issue
c. Very dull and lifeless colours even after doing the conversion (although it improved by boosting the colour a little bit). Many people incluidng Sanjay who saw the movie in cinema has confirmed that the BD image indeed is dull and lifeless.

I was so put off by the colour space issue that I didn't see the movie in full later and hence my review was incomplete. I am still hoping Chandna's version will release soon.


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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Thanks, did not realise another version of Kaminey was in the works. Which company is releasing that?


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