It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 5:43 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 3:16 am
Posts: 4259
FarooqBhai wrote:
I have KKP @ YRF disc; from what I understand, it was shot in it's original 4:3....the cinemascope is the same thing they did with Sholay - just crop top & bottom to get the leterbox/scope feel...


From Nasreen Munni Kabir's book Guru Dutt: A Life in Cinema

In 1958, Guru Dutt obtained the copyright licence from Twentieth Century Fox to use CinemaScope in his next production. Though he also shot Kaagaz Ke Phool simultaneously in 35mm (as not all theaters in India had the right equipment to project the film in CinemaScope), it is evident that the film was conceived in this format.

The book also mentions that Dutt started shooting a film called Gouri in CinemaScope, but it was abandoned, so KKP later became the first Indian CinemaScope film instead.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 3:16 am
Posts: 4259
Is this film available at all anywhere in full widescreen? DVD, VCD, whatever. I may have to break down and watch the lousy pan-and-scan version :(


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:08 pm
Posts: 448
^ I haven't found it yet...perhaps it doesn't exist on DVD.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2001 6:17 pm
Posts: 801
Location: USA
Eros' version was widescreen - cropped and very bad quality.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 3:16 am
Posts: 4259
I've given up on finding a quality letterboxed version of KKP. Is there a good 4:3 DVD that uses the Academy version of the film, rather than cropping from CinemaScope?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:13 pm
Posts: 1477
DragunR2 wrote:
I've given up on finding a quality letterboxed version of KKP. Is there a good 4:3 DVD that uses the Academy version of the film, rather than cropping from CinemaScope?

I'm not sure! All the DVDs specified in the beginning of the thread are crap.

Why do we call all these films classics when DVD authors or restoring companies or the owners can't spend a penny restoring it and presenting it in the best format the director wanted it to look like?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2001 3:26 pm
Posts: 2253
Location: Birmingham
Ragz wrote:

Why do we call all these films classics when DVD authors or restoring companies or the owners can't spend a penny restoring it and presenting it in the best format the director wanted it to look like?


Because a film being a classic is dependent on the quality of the actual film, not the DVDs that are available.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:00 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:13 pm
Posts: 1477
I meant to say that if we cherish and consider these films as classics, why can't we show our love and respect by presenting it in the most perfect form and how the director wanted it to look like??


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:13 pm
Posts: 1477
I've got questions regarding KKP :-

The format was cinemascope. Was it originally shot on a 4:3 ratio, and then masked off to 2.35?

Is it available in its original aspect ratio anywhere in the world?

A Carlotta DVD exists. Is it in the original aspect ratio?

Which DVD has the best quality?

Is there an expectation for a new, remastered version with the OAR?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:13 pm
Posts: 1477
OKAY! :D

I played these two videos side by side :-

ULTRA version :


CHANNEL 4 version :


video #1 is from the Ultra VCD (mastered from a cinemascope print BUT CROPPED)
video #2 is from a Channel 4 screening (mastered from the 4:3)

There's a lot of difference in the screenplay : Waheeda Rehman's position, her acting, the children in the crowd.

Does this prove that the film was shot both on cinemascope and on academy ratio SEPARATELY? It'd be so good if some decent company could remaster both these versions for a Blu-ray edition. I guess that's a lot I'm asking for. Hopefully one of the prints is ALIVE.

Have not seen the movie in the hope of a better version than the versions available now. BTW, I watched Pyaasa yesterday sourced from the Carlotta edition. It was a path breaking experience! Such a beautiful movie! And an amazing print, to top it. That was how I wish to watch all evergreen masterpieces :') only if my wish came true some day. :oops:


Last edited by Ragz on Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:51 pm
Posts: 2763
Location: I N D I A
good!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 1:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2001 7:27 pm
Posts: 6140
Ragz,
I don't see neither of the print in cinemascope. Ch 4 print is 4:3 and has more picture all around (except it's a tiny bit less at bottom). Ultra print is cut a lot from the top.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:13 pm
Posts: 1477
The Ultra edition looks like it is sourced from the cinemascope print, but is heavily cropped (read previous posts mentioning Ultra's aspect ratio as 1.70, roughly.) Ultra, Eros and Spark seem to be mastered from the Cinemascope print. However, it is said that the Yash Raj version was mastered from the 4x3 print. So is this Channel 4 screening.

Judging by the two videos, it is evident that the movie (or maybe only a few scenes) was/were shot twice (once in Cinemascope, and later in 4x3).

I guess the 4x3 version has less picture on the sided compared to the cinemascope version. (note that the Ultra version might be cropped from all sides, so it is possible that the Cinemascope version has more information on the edges.)

I'm sorta desperate for a DVD with fuller aspect ratio. Which one has the most picture - ULTRA, EROS, SPARK OR BOLLYWOOD FILMS?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:11 am
Posts: 18
Ragz wrote:
The Ultra edition looks like it is sourced from the cinemascope print, but is heavily cropped (read previous posts mentioning Ultra's aspect ratio as 1.70, roughly.)

I don't know for sure but I believe the only copy of the cinemascope print is in the NFAI (the 2nd picture/4th paragraph):

http://www.menright.com/pages/bollywood-gurudutt.html

In addition, I believe the reviewer is correct in saying all home media versions are from the 4:3 version which was filmed at the same time but in different takes. Some have just been cropped above and below to make them look widescreen, which is a really silly thing to do, and then encoded for 4:3 rather than 16:9 which is even more stupid, but one can expect no more from the incompetent Indian home media companies. The placement of objects and people was different in the 4:3 version. I went and found the scene from which that guy shot the still when viewing the film at the NFAI and everything is different for the narrower width 4:3 version. It's not just a cropped version of the same scene - the furniture and people are arranged differently. The exact same still isn't even in the 4:3 version because it was from a completely different take.
Quote:
I'm sorta desperate for a DVD with fuller aspect ratio.

I think you can forget about that, at least for the time being. The 16:9 Carlotta version was never released. I don't know whether or not it was sourced from the Cinemascope reels of film. I too, several years ago, thought the 4:3 DVDs were created from the Cinemascope film version, only cropped from the sides, but decided later the 4:3 version stands on its own.
rana wrote:
Ragz,
I don't see neither of the print in cinemascope. Ch 4 print is 4:3 and has more picture all around (except it's a tiny bit less at bottom). Ultra print is cut a lot from the top.

Right, I agree - the so-called 'widescreen' version is just a butchered version of the 4:3 source. That's my Ek Do Teen on YouTube and the reason some picture is missing from the bottom is because that Channel 4 version was captured to VHS tape many years ago and I cropped away the noise that VHS tapes have at the bottom.
Ragz wrote:
BTW, I watched Pyaasa yesterday sourced from the Carlotta edition. It was a path breaking experience! Such a beautiful movie! And an amazing print, to top it. That was how I wish to watch all evergreen masterpieces :') only if my wish came true some day. :oops:

Did you watch it on YouTube? Then it was also mine and sourced from the Carlotta DVD of Pyaasa. However, while the Carlotta DVD is far and away the best version of the film available, it's still very poor and some of the beauty you saw was a result of maybe 40 hours of work on my part trying to clean it up. If you're interested, maybe have a look at this 'before and after':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSuWcoH75ns

Watching in the larger 'Theater Mode' at 720p allows you to see more clearly all the dirt and specks infesting the print used for the DVD, as well as the splotches and splices and other garbage that make it far less than a good DVD. I don't vouch for the subtitles as they're from a retail version of the DVD and I don't speak the language.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:13 pm
Posts: 1477
Manono, I am Raghuvir! One of your subscribers. :)
Yes, I was talking about your upload. I watched it on my HDTV the other day and was very happy that I got to see the movie in really good quality.
That Before and After feature is really interesting! I realized that you put in a lot of effort. Trust me, it was all worth it.

I had no idea that the Carlotta edition of Kaagaz Ke Phool never released. I only thought that it was out of print.

I just assumed that the Ultra version was sourced from the Cinemascope print. I wasn't totally sure, though. Thanks for the info.

Now, I'm led to think that home media editions are sourced from a 4:3 print, with different takes. Hence the different framing, actions, etc.

Judging by the picture, KKP would look unbelievable in its original aspect ratio.

Image

Hopefully there'll be a screening in India which I am eager to watch. (I doubt they allow people below 18 :? )

Can anyone recommend the best source of the film available?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 33 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group